Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

[Libertas]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/politics ... index.html

Pelosi says House will consider assault weapons ban legislation

Get the fascist killers on record, they will vote against it of course.

[ZoWie]

Always good at election time to have everyone on record as to where they stand on 18 year olds being able to walk into a store and walk out with a weapon of war.

[JoeMemphis]

Always good at election time to have everyone on record as to where they stand on 18 year olds being able to walk into a store and walk out with a weapon of war.

From a practical point of view, an outright ban on assault weapons is going to be tougher than it was back in the 80’s. There’s just more of them out there. What you might be able to do is to limit the ownership of such weapons by requiring people who seek to purchase or own such weapons to go thru additional steps including a waiting period. I had to do this a few years back when I purchased a 12 gauge shotgun than had a 13” barrel. The short barrel put it into a different class of weapon. I was finger printed, background checks from the state, local and federal levels, photographed, had to purchase a $200 stamp/permit. The whole process took 6 weeks to complete. Lastly, you cannot transfer ownership of such a weapon unless you do so thru a firearms dealer to another qualified individual.

The people who truly want such a weapon will go to the trouble. Most folks won’t want to go thru the hassle. But it’s not a ban. It’s just an additional requirement. When I went thru the process it was after the assault weapons ban had expired. I don’t know how difficult it would be to implement nowadays in this environment but I do think it’s a better more palatable arrangement than something labeled as a “ban”.

[Libertas]

In a society of mature adults, nobody would own an assault rifle.

[ProfX]

At a minimum, you should be 21 to own an AR-15 (and other semi autos), and heck, I would make it 25. 21 can be fine for handguns, and I'd still allow 18 for say a standard .22 hunting rifle. This should be done federally.

Secondly, there needs to be a federal ban on >10 rounds high cap magazines, and I think there should be flags if you try and buy more than 3 magazines at once. Bottom line is we can debate restrictions for other guns, but the permitting, licensing, and background checks for AR-15 and semi autos should always be the strictest. None of this "pay n go" bullcrap.

Buybacks for AR-15s by PDs should be encouraged. Of course, such programs are voluntary, not confiscatory.

I'm OK with all that. I'd avoid the term "assault weapons" just because of the issues with the 1994-2004 ban. No more focus on cosmetic features; that didn't work - also you need to focus on semi auto function, more than just "scary looking" form. Also, if this is done, I think it's pretty good, if not a total (federal) ban.

What the 7 states plus DC have done is fine - if other states want to follow that route (i.e. a total state ban) -- works for me, too. On a state by state level. Texas and FL will never do it, though I think they should.

[ProfX]

Tulsa shooting ... gunman named as Michael Louis, he killed himself so he is dead, he shot 4 people, he used an AR-15, and yes he is A-A.

Victims of Tulsa mass shooting identified in breaking news update from Saint Francis
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/victi ... e1fe0.html

It looks like his main target was Dr. Philips ... Philips had treated him for back surgery, and he was angry as he was still in pain. But he also shot other people who were in his way.

All I can say is ... Black people sometimes get substandard medical care, I don't know whether there was malpractice here or not, but even if there was, for obvious reasons, no, you do not get to kill your doctor (or any of his staff and assistants) for receiving improper care. BTW, he even shot another patient. But I don't believe he was trying to kill as many people as possible. He was mainly angry at Philips but like many of these shooters didn't seem to object harming others in the vicinity.

With shootings in hospitals ... is there any safe place now? Are we gonna turn those into fortresses too?

[Libertas]

You may remember my line about all this:

"If my hobby of playing video games (mostly race cars, F1 etc) was also KILLING thousands of people a year, I would give up my hobby for the good of the society."

[JoeMemphis]

At a minimum, you should be 21 to own an AR-15 (and other semi autos), and heck, I would make it 25. 21 can be fine for handguns, and I'd still allow 18 for say a standard .22 hunting rifle. This should be done federally.

Secondly, there needs to be a federal ban on >10 rounds high cap magazines, and I think there should be flags if you try and buy more than 3 magazines at once. Bottom line is we can debate restrictions for other guns, but the permitting, licensing, and background checks for AR-15 and semi autos should always be the strictest. None of this "pay n go" bullcrap.

Buybacks for AR-15s by PDs should be encouraged. Of course, such programs are voluntary, not confiscatory.

I'm OK with all that. I'd avoid the term "assault weapons" just because of the issues with the 1994-2004 ban. No more focus on cosmetic features; that didn't work - also you need to focus on semi auto function, more than just "scary looking" form. Also, if this is done, I think it's pretty good, if not a total (federal) ban.

What the 7 states plus DC have done is fine - if other states want to follow that route (i.e. a total state ban) -- works for me, too. On a state by state level. Texas and FL will never do it, though I think they should.

Semi auto covers a very wide range of long guns and pistols.

[carmenjonze]

Tulsa shooting ... gunman named as Michael Louis, he killed himself so he is dead, he shot 4 people, he used an AR-15, and yes he is A-A.

Victims of Tulsa mass shooting identified in breaking news update from Saint Francis
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/victi ... e1fe0.html

It looks like his main target was Dr. Philips ... Philips had treated him for back surgery, and he was angry as he was still in pain. But he also shot other people who were in his way.

All I can say is ... Black people sometimes get substandard medical care, I don't know whether there was malpractice here or not, but even if there was, for obvious reasons, no, you do not get to kill your doctor (or any of his staff and assistants) for receiving improper care. BTW, he even shot another patient. But I don't believe he was trying to kill as many people as possible. He was mainly angry at Philips but like many of these shooters didn't seem to object harming others in the vicinity.

With shootings in hospitals ... is there any safe place now? Are we gonna turn those into fortresses too?

Can’t go to first grade, can’t go to college campus, can’t go to the hospital, can’t go to the grocery store, can’t go to church, can’t go to synagogue, can’t go to Sikh temple, can’t go to the movies, can’t go to a concert, can’t run a marathon in Boston, can’t go to the hospital…

[carmenjonze]

All of the people are men.

All. Of. Them.

[carmenjonze]

Semi auto covers a very wide range of long guns and pistols.

Conservatives may be ignorant about everything else in the world, but you guys sure know a lot about killing machines.

[ProfX]

I know this much. I am not an avid gun owner, but I read.

Fully automatic = machine guns = keep firing continuously as long as trigger is held. Very useful in war. That's why they give you one, if you sign up as a soldier. Pretty much not available to civilians since 1938. (Other than very unusual NFA exceptions for dealers etc.)

Semi automatic = can keep firing over and over again, once per trigger press, but if they had a 100 round drum magazine, would be 100 continuous shots, at least per trigger press. Now these can duplicate automatic like fire with bump stocks, but even Trump agreed bump stocks should be banned after the Vegas shooter had used one. The issue with the 1994 federal assault weapons ban is it really only focused on semi auto "assault" rifles, and defined them cosmetically/visually. It had problems. I agree the state ones no longer make this mistake.

Both semi auto pistols and rifles plus high cap magazines are preferred by mass shooters. Cho, the WV shooter, used two semi auto pistols. After all, if you're gonna kill a lot of people, and maybe also don't want to be shot or stopped while reloading ...

Other weapons, well, with a revolver, you might get six shots, then you gotta reload. I don't see you going anywhere and killing 20 people with that. No way.

Other interesting things I read ... even many NRA members and gun store owners used to oppose selling body armor and tac gear to people not working in security ... that also changed ... recently.

[JoeMemphis]

I know this much. I am not an avid gun owner, but I read.

Fully automatic = machine guns = keep firing continuously as long as trigger is held. Very useful in war. That's why they give you one, if you sign up as a soldier. Pretty much not available to civilians since 1938. (Other than very unusual NFA exceptions for dealers etc.)

Semi automatic = can keep firing over and over again, once per trigger press, but if they had a 100 round drum magazine, would be 100 continuous shots, at least per trigger press. Now these can duplicate automatic like fire with bump stocks, but even Trump agreed bump stocks should be banned after the Vegas shooter had used one. The issue with the 1994 federal assault weapons ban is it really only focused on semi auto "assault" rifles, and defined them cosmetically/visually. It had problems. I agree the state ones no longer make this mistake.

Both semi auto pistols and rifles plus high cap magazines are preferred by mass shooters. Cho, the WV shooter, used two semi auto pistols. After all, if you're gonna kill a lot of people, and maybe also don't want to be shot or stopped while reloading ...

Other weapons, well, with a revolver, you might get six shots, then you gotta reload. I don't see you going anywhere and killing 20 people with that. No way.

Other interesting things I read ... even many NRA members and gun store owners used to oppose selling body armor and tac gear to people not working in security ... that also changed ... recently.

Attempting to ban semi automatic weapons as a group is simply a non starter. Limiting magazine capacity to less than 15 rounds might be doable. Addressing assault type weapons with certain rates of fire might be doable. As I said, I would not call these bans. Just make them harder to get by requiring the purchaser to go they additional steps.

[ProfX]

Attempting to ban semi automatic weapons as a group is simply a non starter.

I agree on this. Will not happen at the federal level esp. now with the filibuster.

Note I recommended things similar to what you just said, earlier. With regard to the AR-15, and other semi autos.

It has been done at the state level. As BLD himself pointed out, 7 states plus DC have done it ... and courts upheld it as consistent with Heller.

[ProfX]

All of the people are men.

All. Of. Them.

As a man, who has never owned a gun, I look at many of these incidents, and I wonder about one thing about these ... guys.

He had no right to shoot and kill Philips. Let's say for argument's sake there was malpractice. Sue the living shit out of him. But if there wasn't ... ya know, medicine doesn't come with a guarantee. I happen to know with my Mom that they can try everything and the moon to end certain kinds of back pain, and nothing works. I did not fault her doctors for trying, even if nothing worked.

But c'mon Msr. Louis. Did you really have to shoot two of his assistants/aides, AND another patient, "just because they were also there"?

It seems these mass shooters really believe not only should some one pay for what done them wrong, but every one needs to pay. Like the workplace shooters who go on to kill their boss, but figure they are so angry, why not also kill several other employees.

[Motor City]

Tulsa shooting ... gunman named as Michael Louis, he killed himself so he is dead, he shot 4 people, he used an AR-15, and yes he is A-A.

Victims of Tulsa mass shooting identified in breaking news update from Saint Francis
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/victi ... e1fe0.html

It looks like his main target was Dr. Philips ... Philips had treated him for back surgery, and he was angry as he was still in pain. But he also shot other people who were in his way.

All I can say is ... Black people sometimes get substandard medical care, I don't know whether there was malpractice here or not, but even if there was, for obvious reasons, no, you do not get to kill your doctor (or any of his staff and assistants) for receiving improper care. BTW, he even shot another patient. But I don't believe he was trying to kill as many people as possible. He was mainly angry at Philips but like many of these shooters didn't seem to object harming others in the vicinity.

With shootings in hospitals ... is there any safe place now? Are we gonna turn those into fortresses too?

Wonder if it had to do with changes in prescribing pain medication. This guy appears to be older than both 18 and 21 as a lot of mass shooters are, seems kind of hateful to just change the age range on the availability of weapons of war to civilian people for use in public. Even mental health doesnt seem to be a standard to trust in, with weapons of war, as mental health status is subject to change for various reasons and input and stimuli. Fewer and fewer avenues for relief and actively trying to sabotage peoples ability to solve their problems but leave full access to buy weapons of war just seem like bad chemistry all around no matter the age.

The kind of fortress we need to protect us from people wanting to commit mass shootings and being able to carry them out is like the one we used to have that protected us from them, the one of peace and good will, trust, love, forgiveness, sharing, justice, of education and stability and caring about each other.

[ProfX]

Dunno, I certainly never said all mass shooters are 18-21, but that tends to be the age range for school shooters. I'm all for age limits and (some) mental health care background checks on purchases, BUT ... again, I think it is really kind of irrelevant in the larger sense. In that, as I keep saying, lots of countries have mentally ill people, and angry young 18 year olds who play violent video games and listen to gangsta rap and whatever they want to blame ... ONLY the U.S. has this mass shooting problem.

I definitely think whether you are 18 or 45, you should not be able to buy an AR-15 as easy as a Pop Tart. No, and no sane country does it that way.

[JoeMemphis]

I agree on this. Will not happen at the federal level esp. now with the filibuster.

Note I recommended things similar to what you just said, earlier. With regard to the AR-15, and other semi autos.

It has been done at the state level. As BLD himself pointed out, 7 states plus DC have done it ... and courts upheld it as consistent with Heller.

As I said, I had to go thru a 6 week process in TN. So it is constitutional to have such a process. I would also suggest ending these “constitutional” carry laws. I don’t have an issue with gun ownership but I do think there should be some minimal requirements to carry a weapon in public, esp open carry. I don’t think I have heard of a single law enforcement agency that thinks that’s a good idea.

[ProfX]

Cool, Joe, then I hope you will join with me, FL law enforcement (you're right), and many other Floridians in opposing Guv Ron's "constitutional carry" law which WILL, if passed and signed, allow unrestricted open carry and concealed carry without permits.

[Libertas]

Cool, Joe, then I hope you will join with me, FL law enforcement (you're right), and many other Floridians in opposing Guv Ron's "constitutional carry" law which WILL, if passed and signed, allow unrestricted open carry and concealed carry without permits.

If that passes and I assume it will, you will not be safe leaving your home. I know you know that. I already dont feel safe and where I live the gun laws are a little better.

[ProfX]

I remember when they used to sell these T shirts -- back in the 80s.



Look, this has been a state of gun nuts for a long time. Can't pin this entirely on Captain Ron. We were one of the first to adopt so-called "Stand Your Ground" in 2005. They used to joke Marion Hammer of the NRA was our Lt. Governor.

I used to joke with one of my friends about how our highway road rage shooting incidents were a regular local feature in the papers. Gallows humor, I guess.

That would be the final nail in the ... coffin, if Ron signs that law, but look we were on this trajectory for a long time.

[Libertas]

I remember when they used to sell these T shirts -- back in the 80s.



Look, this has been a state of gun nuts for a long time. Can't pin this entirely on Captain Ron. We were one of the first to adopt so-called "Stand Your Ground" in 2005. They used to joke Marion Hammer of the NRA was our Lt. Governor.

I used to joke with one of my friends about how our highway road rage shooting incidents were a regular local feature in the papers. Gallows humor, I guess.

That would be the final nail in the ... coffin, if Ron signs that law, but look we were on this trajectory for a long time.

I just watched the President's speech, I did not hear him name the GOP other than saying we need 10 of them in the Senate. Also today they HONORED Nancy Reagan, Louis DeJoy was an honored guest. If I am wrong about Joe naming the GOP , let me know. BUt if they STILL refuse to name them, this November will be a nightmare trying to get votes.

[Motor City]

Dunno, I certainly never said all mass shooters are 18-21, but that tends to be the age range for school shooters. I'm all for age limits and (some) mental health care background checks on purchases, BUT ... again, I think it is really kind of irrelevant in the larger sense. In that, as I keep saying, lots of countries have mentally ill people, and angry young 18 year olds who play violent video games and listen to gangsta rap and whatever they want to blame ... ONLY the U.S. has this mass shooting problem.

I definitely think whether you are 18 or 45, you should not be able to buy an AR-15 as easy as a Pop Tart. No, and no sane country does it that way.

Yea I know you didn't say that I didn't mean to infer it either. I was referring to the legislation being discussed about limiting the age, we agree on much here. There's an eerie similarity in the hesitations of police and legislators here.

https://twitter.com/RealLucyLawless/sta ... 7886341121

Gun violence is cancer.

[ap215]

A man shot, killed 2 church members, then himself, outside of Ames' Cornerstone Church, sheriff says

A man shot and killed two female victims, then killed himself, in a parking lot outside Ames' Cornerstone Church Thursday night, according to police and officials at the church.

"We are grieving deeply," said a statement from Mark Vance, with the Salt Company youth ministry at Cornerstone Church. "Tonight, a tragic shooting occurred involving two young members of our Cornerstone Church community. It is believed that an adult male shot these two victims and then took his own life."

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story ... 492598001/

[carmenjonze]

As a man, who has never owned a gun, I look at many of these incidents, and I wonder about one thing about these ... guys.

He had no right to shoot and kill Philips. Let's say for argument's sake there was malpractice. Sue the living shit out of him. But if there wasn't ... ya know, medicine doesn't come with a guarantee. I happen to know with my Mom that they can try everything and the moon to end certain kinds of back pain, and nothing works. I did not fault her doctors for trying, even if nothing worked.

But c'mon Msr. Louis. Did you really have to shoot two of his assistants/aides, AND another patient, "just because they were also there"?

It seems these mass shooters really believe not only should some one pay for what done them wrong, but every one needs to pay. Like the workplace shooters who go on to kill their boss, but figure they are so angry, why not also kill several other employees.

How many people have suffered pain after surgery, in addition to malpractice? How many have ever tI up to the hospital afterwards and shit up a bunch of people?

How many people were bullied and n school and never picked up a murder weapon to kill over it.

F. this guy!