Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:41 am Works for me.
Everything this Supreme Court does works for you.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ZoWie »

Supreme Court breaks down wall between order and chaos.

Right now, "Ain't good for nothin' else," to quote the song. It was by a band from down south.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

This is encouraging


https://twitter.com/WUTangKids/status/1 ... -bIApCOWuA

https://twitter.com/i/status/1540834913049628673

If everybody votes, there would be maybe 50 GOP in the House and 20 in the Senate.


BTW the more I see stuff today the more I am reminded this is also very much about Jewish people. The cons hate them, and it will get easier and easier soon for them to openly say this. All cons, hint hint.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

Oklahoma just said if doctors give Women healthcare they will go to prison for 10 years, reporting now on MSNBC.

There is NO logical reason to separate reproductive healthcare from other healthcare unless we are going to do the same to men.

I wish cons, including those here, would just admit they want to END any doc or Woman who does this.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

It just got broken down further by striking Engel v. Vitale.
________
The Supreme Court's first decision of the day is Kennedy v. Bremerton. In a 6–3 opinion by Gorsuch, the court holds that public school officials have a constitutional right to pray publicly, and lead students in prayer, during school events. supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf…

Image


With today's decision, the Supreme Court effectively grants special, heightened First Amendment rights to religious speech, allowing public school teachers to pray on the job while denying most other public employees basic free speech rights. supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf…


The Supreme Court formally overrules the Lemon test and the endorsement test, substantially cutting back the Establishment Clause's separation of church and state. This is another maximalist decision. supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf…


Sotomayor, dissenting: "The court sets us further down a perilous path in forcing states to entangle themselves with religion, with all of our rights hanging in the balance. ... Today’s decision is no victory for religious liberty."

https://twitter.com/mjs_dc/status/15414 ... UdLw4eLp5w
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Well, we knew that was coming too. Yep, Christian prayer is fine. Try to pray to another God, of course, and see what happens.

One more step towards theocracy, whether Americans want it or not. Fewer Americans today are religious than ever before, and if they can't get you to do what they tell you to by reason, they'll instead do it by force.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Well, I disagree with Justice Sotomayor. It’s definitely a victory for so-called religious liberty, because “religious liberty” is a dirty, underhanded, dishonest euphemism for “conservative Christianity über Alles.”

But at the end of the day, she’s right. This is such a stupid, and all these far-right Catholics on the SCOTUS should already be able to discern the result of some Catholic teacher in a public school ending a prayer the wrong way for some poor kid of freaked-out Baptists, or a Muslim teacher leading kids in prayer gave times a day facing Mecca.

These conservatives must be forced to say what they mean, that they are after legalized conservative-Christian rule, not the actual religious libburddy they’re always on about. The last thing on earth they want is equal “religious liberty” for liberal Christians, or for ANY other religions but their own.

Conservative Christians like the Slaverdriver Baptist Convention, rightwing Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons, Pentecostals, etc who are cheering this ruling, should be set at war with each other over it. I’ll be interested to find out the Jehovahs Witness take on this ruling, as they’ve often been surprisingly good at First Amendment issues.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:43 am Well, we knew that was coming too. Yep, Christian prayer is fine. Try to pray to another God, of course, and see what happens.

One more step towards theocracy, whether Americans want it or not. Fewer Americans today are religious than ever before, and if they can't get you to do what they tell you to by reason, they'll instead do it by force.
And the vast majority of those fewer Americans have no problem with those practicing their faith. It doesn’t bother most when someone takes a knee and quietly expresses their faith. As long as it’s an individual choice.

That theocracy ct stuff is as ridiculous as the QAnon nuts.
gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:00 am And the vast majority of those fewer Americans have no problem with those practicing their faith. It doesn’t bother most when someone takes a knee and quietly expresses their faith. As long as it’s an individual choice.

That theocracy ct stuff is as ridiculous as the QAnon nuts.
No, it simply reality.

You see, he can't go off by himself and pray. He has to go to the fifty-yard line and do it as publicly as possible, to shame others into joining him, and rejecting publicly those who don't join him.

Of course, they don't care that the Bible teaches differently. Because it's not about praying, it's a political statement done publicly. Didn't Jesus say "“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen.”???

But fuck that, right? Your side never listened to Jesus anyway.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

That was the issue in Engel vs. Vitale.

Nobody has a problem with individuals voluntarily praying in (public) school. You can do it quietly during the moment of silent meditation. You can voluntarily meet with other students, even faculty and staff, pray out loud too to your heart's content, as long as everyone agreed to meet for the prayer meeting and it's held after (or before or otherwise not during) class hours.

The issue over prayer in school was individuals being forced to pray by their teachers and staff (like coaches), without any chance to not participate or leave. It's not just a question of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or atheists being forcibly led in Christian prayer. It's also the issue of Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox not all using the same prayers, or versions of prayers, and being forced to be led in prayer of another's sect. That matters, and was also part of the discussion going into the 1962 ruling.

I am not bothered if the coach prayed alone, quietly; but it seemed he wanted players to come and join him at the fifty yard line; I might be OK with that as long as there was no coercion. I think the real goal of Engel was to make sure athletes and students were not forced into participating in prayer they did not wish to.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:00 am And the vast majority of those fewer Americans have no problem with those practicing their faith.
Source this claim, please.
It doesn’t bother most when someone takes a knee and quietly expresses their faith.
Taking a knee is not a religious act.

You guys threw a shit fit for years when a couple sports players here and there did it, and never once stood for their so-called religious libburddy to do so.
As long as it’s an individual choice.
As many times as Engel v. Vitale has been discussed around here, one would think it would have sunk in by now that a school official leading students in prayers is antithetical to “individual choice.”

This is why you guys’s complaints about grooming fall flat. Talking about one’s spouse isn’t grooming. Imposing Christian prayers on the Jewish kids on the team is the grooming.
That theocracy ct stuff is as ridiculous as the QAnon nuts.
Says a person who misrepresents what you are, and is so petty you got several people to post to one account just to troll a small message board. You ought to know the meaning of “ridiculous”.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

ProfX wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:10 am That was the issue in Engel vs. Vitale.

Nobody has a problem with individuals voluntarily praying in (public) school. You can do it quietly during the moment of silent meditation. You can voluntarily meet with other students, even faculty and staff, pray out loud too to your heart's content, as long as everyone agreed to meet for the prayer meeting and it's held after (or before or otherwise not during) class hours.

The issue over prayer in school was individuals being forced to pray by their teachers and staff (like coaches), without any chance to not participate or leave. It's not just a question of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or atheists being forcibly led in Christian prayer. It's also the issue of Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox not all using the same prayers, or versions of prayers, and being forced to be led in prayer of another's sect. That matters, and was also part of the discussion going into the 1962 ruling.

I am not bothered if the coach prayed alone, quietly; but it seemed he wanted players to come and join him at the fifty yard line; I might be OK with that as long as there was no coercion. I think the real goal of Engel was to make sure athletes and students were not forced into participating in prayer they did not wish to.
Yeah, joining the coach could be the difference between starting and riding the bench. But that's okay with the idiotic right. They believe in religious freedom - the freedom of the religious to force you to abide by and participate in their faith.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:04 am No, it simply reality.

You see, he can't go off by himself and pray. He has to go to the fifty-yard line and do it as publicly as possible, to shame others into joining him, and rejecting publicly those who don't join him.

Of course, they don't care that the Bible teaches differently. Because it's not about praying, it's a political statement done publicly. Didn't Jesus say "“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen.”???

But fuck that, right? Your side never listened to Jesus anyway.

You remind me of the irrational fluoride in the water ct people from when I was a youngster.

There’s simply no theocracy threat.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:12 am Yeah, joining the coach could be the difference between starting and riding the bench. But that's okay with the idiotic right. They believe in religious freedom - the freedom of the religious to force you to abide by and participate in their faith.
That doesn’t happen. Coach plays the best players. I know Christian school coaches and prayer isn’t a thing that influences playing time.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:10 am That was the issue in Engel vs. Vitale.

Nobody has a problem with individuals voluntarily praying in (public) school. You can do it quietly during the moment of silent meditation. You can voluntarily meet with other students, even faculty and staff, pray out loud too to your heart's content, as long as everyone agreed to meet for the prayer meeting and it's held after (or before or otherwise not during) class hours.

The issue over prayer in school was individuals being forced to pray by their teachers and staff (like coaches), without any chance to not participate or leave. It's not just a question of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or atheists being forcibly led in Christian prayer. It's also the issue of Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox not all using the same prayers, or versions of prayers, and being forced to be led in prayer of another's sect. That matters, and was also part of the discussion going into the 1962 ruling.

I am not bothered if the coach prayed alone, quietly; but it seemed he wanted players to come and join him at the fifty yard line; I might be OK with that as long as there was no coercion. I think the real goal of Engel was to make sure athletes and students were not forced into participating in prayer they did not wish to.
No, players wanted to join him.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:13 am You remind me of the irrational fluoride in the water ct people from when I was a youngster.

There’s simply no theocracy threat.
Note you couldn't respond to my points, you just made a personal attack. Yes, there very much IS a theocratic threat. But you are on their side, so you deny the reality.

The religious right, after forty years, have the Supreme Court they want of religious crazies, and they're going to rewrite our nation's laws by decree.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:15 am That doesn’t happen. Coach plays the best players. I know Christian school coaches and prayer isn’t a thing that influences playing time.
Coaches want the players that do what he wants. And yes, for the players on the bubble between playing and sitting, will do whatever it takes to please the coach. This is coercion, pure and simple. That's why he does it on the fifty yard line, and not privately.

Because if he was a Bible-believing Christian, he would pray privately.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:16 am No, players wanted to join him.
Yep, to get on the coach's good side. Thank you for making my point
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:13 am

There’s simply no theocracy threat.
Because you said so?

Which one of you says so?
You remind me of the irrational fluoride in the water ct people from when I was a youngster.
And you remind me of WW2 Polish people who wondered where that bad smell was coming from, and the whites here who were shocked, SHOCKED, at the TV footage of little kids getting dogs and water hoses sicced on them.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:16 am No, players wanted to join him.
:? and you’re certain of this, because…?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Yeah, BTW, I do not think it's silly at all to acknowledge Christian Dominionism and Reconstructionism exist.

They do, several books have been written on these movements by notable scholars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology

Christian nationalism, dominionism, and reconstruction are real ideologies with real advocates. I can agree these beliefs fall on a continuum and as always we can debate how many people hold them and advocate them and what labels should be applied.

It is definitely not incorrect to claim some American Christians hold theocratic beliefs and argue for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... ted_States

Andrew Whitehead and Samuel Perry summarize Christian nationalism with the following statements:[50]

The federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation.
The federal government should advocate Christian values.
The federal government should not enforce the strict separation of church and state.
The federal government should allow religious symbols in public spaces.
The success of the United States is part of God's plan.
The federal government should allow prayer in public schools.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Bookmark this thread.

It contains a really good example of greengrass demonstrating the groomer mentality that conservative extremists project onto LGBTQ teachers.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Reality check:

Image
Lawyers for the school district say officials had no problem letting Kennedy pray separately from students or letting him return to the field to pray after the students left. But allowing him to pray at midfield immediately after games with students there risked being seen as government endorsement of religion.

While Kennedy insists he never cared whether students participated in the prayers and he never asked them to join him, at least one player — anonymously — later reported participating contrary to his own beliefs, for fear of losing playing time.
Tell us again how there was no coercion, greengrass.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

It was the same situation in a lot of pre-Engele America.

Many teachers claim what they were doing as fine, some did allow students to leave; but of course, deep down, every student knew, whether it was openly declared or not, that leaving or nonparticipating would gain the disfavor of the teacher and taunts by other students ... "Hey Jew Boy, I notice you weren't there again for the homeroom opening prayers ... "

I suspect there was more than one player who thought, whether the coach said it out loud or not, joining the coach there might be the difference between "starting and riding the bench". So far we just know of one who admitted to it.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:33 am Reality check:

Image



Tell us again how there was no coercion, greengrass.
You are opposed to Clemson coach having a bible study.
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