Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:22 pm And you're welcome to send your children where you want. But if it's not a public school, you can pay for it out of your own pocket.

I would think, as a conservative, you know, a by-your-bootstraps, anti-government interference type, you wouldn't WANT the government funding your kid's education anyway, right?
As a conservative I think the primary objective of public education is a high quality education. If the government is going to pay for the service then I am not opposed to non government institutions delivering the service as long as the objective is being achieved. I am also not opposed to parents deciding where to go to obtain the service.
JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:32 pm Although understanding its actual meaning wouldn't impact opponents in any way, "Madrassa" translates to "school", or "place of education", at least within the Arabic world. It does mean something different to the west and I recognize that that is the one being used here. Yet, even simply calling it an Islamic school or Muslim school is going to meet with gnashing of teeth.
Gnashing of teeth. Probably from some folks but choice means choice.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:34 pm As a conservative I think the primary objective of public education is a high quality education. If the government is going to pay for the service then I am not opposed to non government institutions delivering the service as long as the objective is being achieved. I am also not opposed to parents deciding where to go to obtain the service.
But religious education isn't public education. Too bad you can't understand the difference.

So you'd be fine with the government funding anti-US Muslim Madrassas?

Bullshit.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:43 pm But religious education isn't public education. Too bad you can't understand the difference.

So you'd be fine with the government funding anti-US Muslim Madrassas?

Bullshit.
I already confirmed for us that they are only good with rightwing Christianity when it comes to this. Here is how to think about it, take the word "hypocrites" and throw it out because it doesnt come near describing them.

BTW they dont care about that, they admit they want only to support their religion. Ask them!
I sigh in your general direction.
JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:43 pm But religious education isn't public education. Too bad you can't understand the difference.

So you'd be fine with the government funding anti-US Muslim Madrassas?

Bullshit.
I’m good with a quality education. Matters not to me who delivers the service as long as the objective is achieved. I am not opposed to Muslim schools anymore than I am opposed to Catholic schools or Baptist schools or public schools. I am opposed to failing schools.
gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:49 pm I’m good with a quality education. Matters not to me who delivers the service as long as the objective is achieved. I am not opposed to Muslim schools anymore than I am opposed to Catholic schools or Baptist schools or public schools. I am opposed to failing schools.
Do you think schools that teach that homosexuality is sinful and horrible are providing a good education? One that the government should be paying for?

How about things like creationism? Or faith healing?
JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:53 pm Do you think schools that teach that homosexuality is sinful and horrible are providing a good education? One that the government should be paying for?

How about things like creationism? Or faith healing?
The government can set reasonable academic standards and the rest is up to the parents. It’s better than failing generation after generation while asking them to wait for a failed system to figure it out.

If the public school is the best option then I’m sure they will not hurt for students.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:04 pm The government can set reasonable academic standards and the rest is up to the parents. It’s better than failing generation after generation while asking them to wait for a failed system to figure it out.

If the public school is the best option then I’m sure they will not hurt for students.
Again, this school in this case is very anti-gay. So, you are for the government funding this, yes?
JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:10 pm Again, this school in this case is very anti-gay. So, you are for the government funding this, yes?
Am I anti gay? No.

Am I for school choice? Yes.

I don’t personally agree with everything that goes on in public schools. I don’t personally agree with everything taught in private schools. That doesn’t mean I don’t think they should be funded. That doesn’t mean that I will like or agree with the choice of every parent. The government should set reasonable academic standards and after that it should be up to the parents and the student where they choose to go to receive their education. It’s worked pretty well for higher ed. people are capable of making education decisions.
JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:17 pm Am I anti gay? No.

Am I for school choice? Yes.

I don’t personally agree with everything that goes on in public schools. I don’t personally agree with everything taught in private schools. That doesn’t mean I don’t think they should be funded. That doesn’t mean that I will like or agree with the choice of every parent. The government should set reasonable academic standards and after that it should be up to the parents and the student where they choose to go to receive their education. It’s worked pretty well for higher ed. People are capable of making education decisions.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:17 pm Am I anti gay? No.

Am I for school choice? Yes.

I don’t personally agree with everything that goes on in public schools. I don’t personally agree with everything taught in private schools. That doesn’t mean I don’t think they should be funded. That doesn’t mean that I will like or agree with the choice of every parent. The government should set reasonable academic standards and after that it should be up to the parents and the student where they choose to go to receive their education. It’s worked pretty well for higher ed. people are capable of making education decisions.
Let's be clear: The STANDARD that has been set is that you can't teach religion on the government dime. That's called Separation of Church and State.

And the Supreme Court just knocked down that standard, and said the government has to fund religious education, even if it's anti-gay.

And you support that decision.

That's why I've always called bullshit on your supposed support for gay rights. You've proved to us today that you have no support for gay rights in America.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

Of course they dont support Gay rights.

Laughable they ever pretended they did.
I sigh in your general direction.
JoeMemphis

Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:25 pm Let's be clear: The STANDARD that has been set is that you can't teach religion on the government dime. That's called Separation of Church and State.

And the Supreme Court just knocked down that standard, and said the government has to fund religious education, even if it's anti-gay.

And you support that decision.

That's why I've always called bullshit on your supposed support for gay rights. You've proved to us today that you have no support for gay rights in America.
I’m open to a system where religious schools have to teach a base level of academic courses to a standard. If they also have religious studies, they can fund that on their own dime. I have no problem with that.

As I said, the primary goal in public education should be education. If the government sets a reasonable base level of academic study. I have no issue if a business, a religious institution, or the government delivers the service. I would leave the decision on where to go up to the parent.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:55 pm Why are we not surprised?

I need to start the Church of the Great Spaghetti Monster to get my hands on some of that sweet government cash.
Conservative Christians are grifters.

Well, conservatives in general are grifters.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:31 pm I’m open to a system where religious schools have to teach a base level of academic courses to a standard.
Already exists. It’s called accreditation, and there are many versed it for K-Post-grad.
If they also have religious studies, they can fund that on their own dime. I have no problem with that.
Religious studies is fine in public schools. Don’t confuse it with theology. They’re not the same thing.
As I said, the primary goal in public education should be education. If the government sets a reasonable base level of academic study. I have no issue if a business, a religious institution, or the government delivers the service.
This is so ignorant.

Parochial and other religious schools have no business receiving government funds.

Stop conflating these very different institutions with very different purposes.
I would leave the decision on where to go up to the parent.
:? That’s never been in question. But also, nobody is fooled that you antigay/antitrans cons GAD about any type of “parents” who are conservative white bigoted parents and their imitators.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:51 pm Doesn’t violate the “Establishment Clause”, no state religion is created. And it only applies to school systems without secondary education. Doesn’t require the state to fund tuition to religious schools where a public school is available. Works for me.
Says the Lexis Nexis beta tester from 1981 or whatever.

:problem:

Mark Joseph Stern
@mjs_DC

And here's Sotomayor spelling out the implications of today's ruling: A state's effort to preserve the constitutional separation of church and state now qualifies as a violation of free exercise. The majority is repealing the establishment clause.

Image

https://supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf ... 8_dbfi.pdf

https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1539256930782388226
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:31 pm I’m open to a system where religious schools have to teach a base level of academic courses to a standard. If they also have religious studies, they can fund that on their own dime. I have no problem with that.
That's NOT what this Supreme Court decision did. Of course, you really don't have a clue WHAT it did, do you? You're not intelligent enough to understand the news story and what it was about.
As I said, the primary goal in public education should be education. If the government sets a reasonable base level of academic study. I have no issue if a business, a religious institution, or the government delivers the service. I would leave the decision on where to go up to the parent.
If a parent wants to send their child to a private or religious school, they are free to do so, and no one here is saying otherwise - except for you. But they can pay for it out of their own pocket, something a conservative should support. After all, you think they can stand on their own, don't you?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:17 pm Am I anti gay?
Image
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Glennfs
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:15 pm Are you REALLY this stupid, that you can't understand a simple news story, that you get all the facts this wrong?

I'm not telling anyone where to educate their children. That's another lie about me. It's about whether the government pays for it or not.

It's what happened in Memphis when the Supreme Court instituted busing. Lots of private and religious schools sprang up because religious whites didn't want their kids going to school with black kids. But they didn't ask the government to pay for it.

Now, Toonces mentioned the Catholic schools in Canada. Here in the US, Catholic schools provide a basically secular education, but they aren't paid for by the government. Now, if the government doesn't fund Catholic schools, why should it fund religious schools, who don't provide a secular education?

Would you be in favor of the government funding Muslim Madrassas, which teach a fundamentalist, anti-US religious education?

Because if you fund one religious school, you have to fund them all.

And as for greengrass' attempted deflection, the catholic faith-based hospitals provide actual medical care, and that's paid for on a fee-for-service basis. Nothing wrong with that, and that has nothing to do with this.

I realize both of you would be more than happy with a religious theocracy for a government, but that's something I will always be against, like the founding fathers were. They set it up this way for a reason.
That makes twice in this thread that you responded to Memphis with insults.
Memphis did not insult you or disrespect the thread.
I know you are better than that.

The government is not funding religious schools.
They are simply giving parents an additional choice.
I thought the left was all about choice
Last edited by Glennfs on Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:33 am That makes twice in this thread that you responded to Memphis with insults.
Memphis did not insult you or disrespect the thread.
I know you are better than that.
Read what he said, and explain it. He started off stating that we were keeping kids from going to school. He obviously doesn’t understand the news story, or anything about it. Do you?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:33 am I thought the left was all about choice
I thought the right was about independence and self-support. Also, not forcing taxpayers to subsidize the choices of other people.

No one is saying you can't choose a parochial school for your kid. Have at it. Just not with the support of other taxpayers. We believe in government support of education. Secular education, that is.

I think it is fine to learn about religion even in K-12. I also agree there's nothing wrong with religious studies. What taxpayer funds should not be used to support is proselytization and religious and other discrimination, which many of these parochial schools do.
Last edited by ProfX on Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:35 am Read what he said, and explain it. He started off stating that we were keeping kids from going to school. He obviously doesn’t understand the news story, or anything about it. Do you?
Look of course the organization which helped bring the suit picked a case that would be easier to win. That is SOP in all these types of cases.
But this win for religious freedom does not mean the government is funding private schools.
It helps individuals who want to attend private schools do so.
The same schools people like Obama sent his kids to. For some reason progressives only want the rich elites be able to send their kids to those quality schools.
Then those same people complain about Ivy League schools only taking children from wealthy families
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:41 am Look of course the organization which helped bring the suit picked a case that would be easier to win. That is SOP in all these types of cases.
But this win for religious freedom does not mean the government is funding private schools.
It helps individuals who want to attend private schools do so.
The same schools people like Obama sent his kids to. For some reason progressives only want the rich elites be able to send their kids to those quality schools.
Then those same people complain about Ivy League schools only taking children from wealthy families
So you say a school that teaches hatred of gays to be a quality school?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:39 am I thought the right was about independence and self-support. Also, not forcing taxpayers to subsidize the choices of other people.

No one is saying you can't choose a parochial school for your kid. Have at it. Just not with the support of other taxpayers. We believe in government support of education. Secular education, that is.

I think it is fine to learn about religion even in K-12. I also agree there's nothing wrong with religious studies. What taxpayer funds should not be used to support is proselytization and religious and other discrimination, which many of these parochial schools do.
Where I grew up the local catholic schools send 80plus percent of their graduates to college and are very expensive.
We had Waksh Jesuit Archbishop Hoban and St Vincent St Mary.
Lebron James went to StV St Mary. I am sure on a basketball scholarship but can't prove it. Lebron James is obviously a person of high intelligence and could have easily went on to college.
Now let's say he was only an average athlete. He would have went to Central Hower and if he didn't get in trouble and drop out would at the very best be tapping into only a fraction of his potential.
Our government helping poor but qualified children get into better schools only strengthens our nation
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:46 am So you say a school that teaches hatred of gays to be a quality school?
For God's sakes I think that poor children who are intelligent enough to get into the same schools that wealthy elites send their kids to is a good thing.
This isn't about muslim schools
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