Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Finally, if you are wondering about my resolution on this topic,

Jewish student forced to attend Christian prayer assembly in West Virginia
Bethany Felinton said that her Jewish son was told he could not leave the Christian prayer assembly held at Huntington High School last week.
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemi ... cle-696175

This shit should not be happening in 2022.

And yes, I know this was a public school, which makes this even worse.

A private parochial academy can do as it likes. It can have assemblies like this all the time. In theory, if it admits Jewish and other non-Christian students, it could even force them to attend these. Hey, you bought the ticket, you gotta take the ride. However, that kind of activity should not get government support. I most definitely hold this position.

Maybe it's thousands of years of history of Jews suffering this shit. Just saying.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:22 pm I am not pretending I haven't taken a previous position. I have.

It's just not relevant to the SCOTUS decision we're discussing.

Oh, and one more thing, to make a point clear, re accreditation. This varies by state, but I'll note what the state of Florida says.

https://www.fldoe.org/schools/school-ch ... chool.stml

There is no state law requiring private schools to be accredited, and there is no state regulation of private school accrediting agencies. Some private schools choose to become accredited.

[snip][end]

Most states, I believe, like FL, do not set any accreditation requirements or standards for religious schools, and in general, all private schools.

They (at least particularly the religious ones) MAY be independently accredited by a variety of agencies that claim to accredit "Christian or Biblical schools". How meaningful is that? Normally that is left up to the individual parent of the individual student to decide.

Key point: there is no accreditation standards parochial schools follow. They are not required to do so. Nationally/federally, and in almost all states.

This becomes a matter of state inquiry, once the state provides the funds. Or at least it should.
Well we are talking about private religious schools and separation of church and state, so the question on whether you or any other poster would object to government funding educational choice in non religious schools is relevant IMO. You may certainly disagree.

I kinda like standards. Reasonable minimal standards for schools receiving public funding doesn’t seem unreasonable. As I said earlier, the mission is education and not the support of any religious, private or government institution.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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Since you like standards, you should know then there is no federal accreditation for K-12 private schools, religious or otherwise, and as I just said, no state accreditation.

Some "Christian schools" belong to what they call "independent accreditation agencies." Caveat emptor, I suppose? This reminds me of a certain legislating optician who created his own licensing board to license himself. It's a voluntary choice, not a state requirement.

We might both agree there should be both state and federal standards for accreditation for these schools, since that topic keeps being mentioned. Problem is there isn't. "As long as the school is accredited". Uh huh. As always - by whom? And what does that really mean?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:34 pm Well we are talking about private religious schools and separation of church and state, so the question on whether you or any other poster would object to government funding educational choice in non religious schools is relevant IMO. You may certainly disagree.

I kinda like standards. Reasonable minimal standards for schools receiving public funding doesn’t seem unreasonable. As I said earlier, the mission is education and not the support of any religious, private or government institution.
The Supreme Court just threw those standards out the window. It said that the government MUST fund a far-right religious school that teaches that gays are evil and will go to hell.

And you are cheering that.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:44 pm Yes, BTW, this debate didn't crop up yesterday, perhaps you're familiar with the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hou ... rtnerships

Oddly, Donald Trump, beloved of the evangelicals, left this particular EB office without a director from 2016-2018. Funny, that.

Yes, Joe Biden has continued it.

MHO:
a) I have no problem with HHS giving money to religious operated hospitals, or there being some support for religious charities and community initiatives, provided they pass the Lemon test.
b) there have been numerous controversies regarding the support this and other agencies provide to religious organizations. I don't think those should be ignored. The biggest issue that arose under Bush and never went away is that the types of religious organizations supported (i.e. little or no support to Jewish, Muslim, or neo-Pagan charitable organizations) shows favoritism, which the government should not do.
c) the claim that the Founders had no concern over secularism in education is false, one only needs to read about Jefferson's vision for the Univ. of VA.
https://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_fo ... lar_vision
As did Obama. I’m social media friends with one of the heads and interviewed with him for a job, once.

We still don’t need such an office, not with Bush, not with Obama, not with Trump, not with Biden. Never did.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:34 pm Well we are talking about private religious schools and separation of church and state, so the question on whether you or any other poster would object to government funding educational choice in non religious schools is relevant IMO. You may certainly disagree.

I kinda like standards. Reasonable minimal standards for schools receiving public funding doesn’t seem unreasonable. As I said earlier, the mission is education and not the support of any religious, private or government institution.
I hope your mask is on. You’re speaking out of two sides of your disease-spreading mouth.

Government money for the institution is, by definition, financial support of the institution.

Somebody bookmark this page for the minute Transgender Ministries, Inc. starts a school and applies for government funds.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Theoretically, I would support such an agency (the OoFBI) if it:

a) followed the Lemon test rigorously
b) made sure the agencies funded don't discriminate on basis of religion or sexual orientation (both for clients and staff)
c) was totally fair and neutral in how it funded religious orgs, instead of a) showing obvious bias for evangelical Protestant orgs and Christian ones in general over any others and b) didn't seem to show clear bias in funding orgs that would help create votes for the holder of the executive office.

Jefferson talked about that very problem, in fact, in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. He was worried about the barrier of separation protecting churches from becoming tools of political manipulation and control. Kind of like how China is now picking who Tibet's Lamas will be.

David Kuo, the ex-first-director under Bush, watched it happen, and wrote about it.

In practice, as it has failed to really meet all these ... standards ... I too wish it would not be continued.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:40 pm Since you like standards, you should know then there is no federal accreditation for K-12 private schools, religious or otherwise, and as I just said, no state accreditation.

Some "Christian schools" belong to what they call "independent accreditation agencies." Caveat emptor, I suppose? This reminds me of a certain legislating optician who created his own licensing board to license himself. It's a voluntary choice, not a state requirement.

We might both agree there should be both state and federal standards for accreditation for these schools, since that topic keeps being mentioned. Problem is there isn't. "As long as the school is accredited". Uh huh. As always - by whom? And what does that really mean?
As a general rule the states apply curriculum requirements, health and safety rules, etc to non public schools in order for them to operate and receive funding. Effectively pseudo state accreditation.

https://www2.ed.gov/admins/comm/choice/ ... ivschl.pdf
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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Today the Supreme Court expanded unconstitutional voter ID laws, ended New York gun laws, this is what happens when you bash Hillary Clinton.

People thought the Germany of World War II, the Nazi party, the fascism, was unthinkable and could not happen again.

People were wrong.

I sure would like to find out why two of the patriotic justices voted for this voter ID situation, sure hope they didn’t open the door for the real damage that the Republicans are planning.
Last edited by Libertas on Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:20 am As a general rule the states apply curriculum requirements, health and safety rules, etc to non public schools in order for them to operate and receive funding. Effectively pseudo state accreditation.

https://www2.ed.gov/admins/comm/choice/ ... ivschl.pdf
Table A shows Nebraska appears to be the only state that requires accreditation. All other states show it as "not required, voluntary, or optional". But also has exemptions.

I think that is pretty much what I said. I did not suggest they don't meet some regulations for health and safety. My guess is even a private school cannot build over, say, a hazardous waste site. :D

I think we were discussing academic standards, though, this is what accreditation deals with. Like whether they teach science, or, say, pseudo science.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:42 am Table A shows Nebraska appears to be the only state that requires accreditation. All other states show it as "not required, voluntary, or optional". But also has exemptions.

I think that is pretty much what I said. I did not suggest they don't meet some regulations for health and safety. My guess is even a private school cannot build over, say, a hazardous waste site. :D

I think we were discussing academic standards, though, this is what accreditation deals with. Like whether they teach science, or, say, pseudo science.
The curriculum standards meet academic standards
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Taking my own state,

Florida bill seeks to impose uniform standards on private, charter, public schools
https://fernandinaobserver.com/2021/01/ ... c-schools/

Florida is committed to investing billions on tax-funded school choice vouchers to pay private school tuition for an ever-widening cadre of eligible K-12 students in the coming years.

Democrats will again attempt in 2021 to impose the same academic and oversight standards that public schools must meet on more than 2,800 private schools attended by 400,000 K-12 students across the state.

Sen. Linda Stewart, D-Orlando, has filed 36-page Senate Bill 254, which would do away with “various inconsistencies in requirements for the three types of schools in Florida Statute” and replace it with “uniformity among public, private and charter schools.”

Stewart filed a similar bills in 2019 and 2020 that failed to advance in committee. Her 2021 bill has been forwarded to Senate Education and Appropriations committees and the Senate Education Appropriations Subcommittee.

SB 254 would mandate all instructors to have at least a bachelor’s degree and require that private schools meet state guidelines on school construction, academic standards, administering state exams, receiving state grades and requiring at least 20 minutes of recess for primary schools.

Under current Florida law, private schools establish their own system of school accountability, grading, reporting and evaluating that do not have to meet standards for public schools.

[snip]

“I’m not trying to limit the options alternative choice schools seek to offer, but address the lack of accountability for the sake of all children,” Stewart said. “Regardless of school choice, there should be qualified instructional personnel, and not substandard conditions, which is an irresponsible use of tax dollars, and it’s up to the Legislature to do something about it. We owe this to all the children.”

[snip][end]

Checked legislative history on this bill. What a shock. Died in committee, never voted on in FL Legislature.

Thing being, that this bill is necessary, shows this level playing field on standards does not, in fact, exist.

Needless to say, I agree with the Democrats in my state, if the state is going to provide vouchers to allow people to use government resources to attend alternative schools, then there SHOULD be uniform standards for those alternatives - but there isn't.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

All the supreme court ruling said was if you offer the money you can’t discriminate. So the states are free to properly regulate. Works for me.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:29 am All the supreme court ruling said was if you offer the money you can’t discriminate. So the states are free to properly regulate. Works for me.
They said you cant discriminate - even if the church is teaching that gays must go to hell. Got it.

But that doesn't bother you at all, does it? You wouldn't mind an American Taliban at all.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:57 pm So, if the Nation of Islam wants to have a school, no discrimination, right?

All the government needs to do is to fund the schools. Pretty damned simple.

But the whole idea behind vouchers is to DE-FUND actual public schools. Something you don't want to say out loud, right?
We have a Nation of Islam school. They get vouchers. They do a pretty good job.

I pay a very high real estate tax that supports a very effective public school. The same can be said of the vast majority of communities around me.

The vouchers serve the purpose of providing students the option of leaving failing public schools and obtaining a proper education. It’s pretty effective.

Only an idiot and fool would think there is any chance in hell to defund public school.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 am They said you cant discriminate - even if the church is teaching that gays must go to hell. Got it.

But that doesn't bother you at all, does it? You wouldn't mind an American Taliban at all.
The states are free to properly regulate. It’s up to the states to set the standards.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:59 pm Sorry, they should not. But that's your whole plan, isn't it? To fund religion and religious instruction. You guys aren't any different that the Wahhabists from Saudi Arabia. You WANT a religious theocracy.
Wanting a theocracy would be an odd thing for someone who does not practice a religion. Don’t belong to a church, or fund a church. Have no interest in religion. Of course I’m not so stupid as to forget the establishment clause. Thankfully it’s a very small group of morons who think the people want a theocracy. Or that the courts would allow it.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:24 pm Wanting a theocracy would be an odd thing for someone who does not practice a religion. Don’t belong to a church, or fund a church. Have no interest in religion. Of course I’m not so stupid as to forget the establishment clause. Thankfully it’s a very small group of morons who think the people want a theocracy. Or that the courts would allow it.
We have theocrats ON the Supreme Court! They'll prove that in a few days with their abortion decision. They will make their religious beliefs into law. Let's be clear: The idea that "life begins at conception" is a religious, not scientific viewpoint.

Most of the right are theocrats. They wish to make their religious views, whether it's on homosexuality, prayer or many other issues, into law. The abortion view is about sexual control of women, to make them conform to their religious views of sexuality.

And BTW, greengrass, since you laughingly see yourself as a Constitutional Scholar :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: , I give you Thomas Jefferson:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
And I daresay Thomas Jefferson knows a LOT more about the Constitution than you do.

This decision was a travesty to the Constitution by a bunch of theocrats that want to destroy said Constitution.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:56 pm We have theocrats ON the Supreme Court! They'll prove that in a few days with their abortion decision. They will make their religious beliefs into law. Let's be clear: The idea that "life begins at conception" is a religious, not scientific viewpoint.

Most of the right are theocrats. They wish to make their religious views, whether it's on homosexuality, prayer or many other issues, into law. The abortion view is about sexual control of women, to make them conform to their religious views of sexuality.

And BTW, greengrass, since you laughingly see yourself as a Constitutional Scholar :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: , I give you Thomas Jefferson:



And I daresay Thomas Jefferson knows a LOT more about the Constitution than you do.

This decision was a travesty to the Constitution by a bunch of theocrats that want to destroy said Constitution.
The separation Jefferson referred to was quite simply the establishment clause.

“ Government has history of partnering with faith-based organizations
Although most scholars agree that the establishment clause of the First Amendment forbids government from favoring any particular faith, they differ over whether government efforts to enlist the aid of religious social service organizations threaten the healthy separation of church and state, which the establishment clause protects.

Government and faith-based organizations have been partners since Colonial America. The Congress that wrote the First Amendment also set aside in the Northwest Ordinance public land for churches. Presidents George Washington and Thomas Jefferson funded Christian missions for Indian tribes. Government programs for newly emancipated African Americans funneled much of their money through religious schools and social agencies. Local and state governments supported hospitals, medical clinics, orphanages, and homes for the aged operated by religious groups. Both state and federal governments have long granted tax breaks to religious institutions.”
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:56 pm We have theocrats ON the Supreme Court! They'll prove that in a few days with their abortion decision. They will make their religious beliefs into law. Let's be clear: The idea that "life begins at conception" is a religious, not scientific viewpoint.

Most of the right are theocrats. They wish to make their religious views, whether it's on homosexuality, prayer or many other issues, into law. The abortion view is about sexual control of women, to make them conform to their religious views of sexuality.

And BTW, greengrass, since you laughingly see yourself as a Constitutional Scholar :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: , I give you Thomas Jefferson:



And I daresay Thomas Jefferson knows a LOT more about the Constitution than you do.

This decision was a travesty to the Constitution by a bunch of theocrats that want to destroy said Constitution.
The separation Jefferson referred to was quite simply the establishment clause.

“ Government has history of partnering with faith-based organizations
Although most scholars agree that the establishment clause of the First Amendment forbids government from favoring any particular faith, they differ over whether government efforts to enlist the aid of religious social service organizations threaten the healthy separation of church and state, which the establishment clause protects.

Government and faith-based organizations have been partners since Colonial America. The Congress that wrote the First Amendment also set aside in the Northwest Ordinance public land for churches. Presidents George Washington and Thomas Jefferson funded Christian missions for Indian tribes. Government programs for newly emancipated African Americans funneled much of their money through religious schools and social agencies. Local and state governments supported hospitals, medical clinics, orphanages, and homes for the aged operated by religious groups. Both state and federal governments have long granted tax breaks to religious institutions.”

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/ar ... government
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:03 pm Image
And yet he still funded religious organizations.

And would have expected you, of all people, to understand his reference to established regions. When he says established he’s referring to the concept of a state established religion and why we have a prohibition.

So the wall remains the establishment clause. Nothing more.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:13 pm And yet he still funded religious organizations.

And would have expected you, of all people, to understand his reference to established regions. When he says established he’s referring to the concept of a state established religion and why we have a prohibition.

So the wall remains the establishment clause. Nothing more.
we now have an established state religion.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

https://www.au.org/the-latest/articles/ ... id-ruling/

“The court’s ultra-conservative bloc argued that refusing to tax citizens to fund religion is ‘discrimination against religion.’ It’s nothing less than gaslighting to cloak this assault on our Constitution in the language of non-discrimination,” Laser asserted. “If the conservative justices were concerned with discrimination, they would not have issued this opinion because it forces taxpayers to fund two religious schools that discriminate against LGBTQ families, one barring their admission and the other forcing them to undergo ‘counseling’ and renounce their sexual orientation or gender identity, or be expelled. One school’s stated educational objective is to ‘refute the teachings of the Islamic religion with the truth of God’s word’ – and now Muslim taxpayers will be forced to fund that school.”

[snip][end]

Separating Church and State
https://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights- ... -and-state

At this time, the Church of England (also known as the Anglican Church) was the established religion of Virginia. This meant that the Anglican Church was the only officially recognized church in the colony. Virginia taxpayers supported this church through a religion tax. Only Anglican clergymen could lawfully conduct marriages. Non-Anglicans had to get permission (a license) from the colonial government to preach.

[snip]

Thus, on the eve of the Revolutionary War, nine of the 13 colonies supported official religions with public taxes. Moreover, in these colonies, the government dictated "correct" religious belief and methods of worship. Religious dissenters, like "Swearing Jack," were discriminated against, disqualified from holding public office, exiled, fined, jailed, beaten, mutilated, and sometimes even executed. Only Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware did not have a system linking church and state. After the Revolution, leaders like Jefferson and Madison worked to ensure freedom of religion for all citizens of the new nation.

[snip]

A year after Thomas Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence, he wrote a bill on religious freedom for his home state of Virginia. In writing these documents, Jefferson was strongly influenced by the 17th century English philosopher John Locke. In 1689, Locke had argued that "the church itself is a thing absolutely separate and distinct from the commonwealth [government]." Taking this idea from Locke, Jefferson proposed that Virginia end all tax support of religion and recognize the natural right of all persons to believe as they wish.

[snip]

During spring and summer of 1785, Madison worked to sway public opinion against Henry's religious tax bill. In a widely circulated petition against the bill, Madison declared that it was the natural right of all persons, even atheists, to be left to their own private views of religion. He argued that throughout history "superstition, bigotry, and persecution" have accompanied the union of religion and government. He also asserted that Christianity did not need the support of government to flourish.

Baptists and other evangelical religious groups in Virginia also circulated petitions against the religious tax bill. They viewed this bill forcing government into church affairs and threatening religious liberty. Overwhelmed by the negative public response to Henry's bill, the General Assembly did not even bring it up for a vote. Instead, Madison reintroduced Jefferson's bill, which called for severing all ties between the state of Virginia and religion. Jefferson's "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" was passed on January 19, 1786. This was the first time that a government anywhere in the world had acted to legally separate religion from the state.

"A Wall of Separation"

[snip]

The Bill of Rights originally only limited acts of the federal government. Thus, the First Amendment's prohibition against laws "respecting an establishment of religion" did not affect what states could do. Consequently, seven states (including newly admitted Vermont) continued to assess taxes in support of Christian churches. State laws also frequently required public officeholders to be Christians, denied the vote to non-Christians, and enforced the Christian Sabbath.

[snip]

Gradually, all states followed the lead of Virginia in ending religion taxes. Massachusetts in 1833 was the last of the original 13 states to do this. But some states still involved themselves with religion. For instance, several states made recitation of the Lord's Prayer and devotional Bible readings mandatory in public schools.

Not until the 20th century did the U.S. Supreme Court apply most of the Bill of Rights to the states. The Supreme Court has ruled that the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868) requires states to guarantee fundamental rights such as the First Amendment's prohibition against the establishment of religion. This means that states, like the federal government, can "make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

In 1947, the Supreme Court attempted to define the "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment. Justice Hugo Black, writing for the court, held:

Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. . . . In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against the establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a "wall of separation between Church and State." [Everson v. Board of Education (1947).]

[snip][end]
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:20 pm we now have an established state religion.
Just so we all know. What is the established religion and whose is the head?
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