Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

Fucking trump supporters. :twisted:
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:30 pm Yeah, that’s just fucking stupid. The establishment clause is distinctly clear. No rational way to interpret it as unconstitutional. It would take an amendment. If you really believe that I really, really, pity you. That’s just delusional.
Not delusional at all, Mr. Constitutional Scholar. Let's be clear: The words in the Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court says they mean. Nothing more. I know the history of the Court, and the things they've done.

For instance, they found that the 14th Amendment, written for one thing: Giving human rights under the Constitution to all people, including former slaves. But the SC decided that it also said that Corporations were people and had human rights under the Constitution.

The Supreme Court can do whatever the hell it wants too, and nothing can be done, until another Supreme Court overturns the ruling.

So they can play words games with the Establishment Clause, just like you are fucking doing now, saying it doesn't mean what it clearly says.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:34 pm You truly don’t.
Wow, you awe me with your intellect. They really need to revisit that college degree of yours.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 pm Wow, you awe me with your intellect. They really need to revisit that college degree of yours.
All you need to know is they are full on board with a violent takeover of our government.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:45 pm :roll: :roll: :roll:
So, wiseass, and yes, you too, greengrass, Mr. "You're delusional", and yes, you too, Glenn, because you told me over and over the Justices you love and worship would NEVER do such a thing. They are making their religious beliefs into law via the Supreme Court. Clarence Thomas called to revisit and revise the decisions allowing access to contraception (even for married couples), same sex marriage and even the right to be homosexual in America.

So fucking tell me why they want to change these decisions if it isn't based on their religious beliefs.

Explain to me why they would want to end access to contraception for Americans, ban homosexuality and gay marriage in America if not on religious terms.

This is what you all are voting for. So, Joe, all those gay marriages you supposedly went to, are you going to tell all those folks you are voting for the people that would end their marriages?

Fuck you all.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:56 amSo, Joe, all those gay marriages you supposedly went to, are you going to tell all those folks you are voting for the people that would end their marriages?
Those people, if they ever exist, very likely already know.

These conservatives are only kidding themselves.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

carmenjonze wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:15 am Those people, if they ever exist, very likely already know.

These conservatives are only kidding themselves.
They're just waiting for the day they can smirk at them when their marriage is rendered null and void, and they're taken off to jail on sodomy charges.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:17 am They're just waiting for the day they can smirk at them when their marriage is rendered null and void, and they're taken off to jail on sodomy charges.
Oh yeah, make no mistake, cons including those here HATE that it was REQUIRED all states accept Gay marriage.

They may say it is OK if a given state wants to etc, but the very IDEA that there would be a law PREVENTING THEM FROM INITIATING THEIR BIGOTRY makes them crazy.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Libertas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:07 pm Oh yeah, make no mistake, cons including those here HATE that it was REQUIRED all states accept Gay marriage.

They may say it is OK if a given state wants to etc, but the very IDEA that there would be a law PREVENTING THEM FROM INITIATING THEIR BIGOTRY makes them crazy.
For all their lies about "states rights" - they don't want ANY of it to be legal ANYWHERE.

The National Right to Life Convention just happened to start their national convention today (what bullshit - this was a setup from the day Barrett was confirmed), and this is what they said:
“We are all excited,” Carol Tobias, the president of the National Right to Life Committee, told CNN. “Of course, everybody here is erupting in tears of joy that this has finally happened. We are going to be celebrating for the rest of the weekend.”

But, Tobias acknowledged: “We have a long battle ahead of us. Abortion is not going to be illegal because of this decision. The elected officials are now going to have to determine what the laws will be – federal and state levels. There’s a lot of work to do. And we need to build a culture that’s pro-mom, pro-baby, pro-life. We certainly know this is not the end.”
Let's be clear: the only end game for them is for the Supreme Court to declare that life begins at conception, and any abortion is first-degree murder. And contraception and homosexuality is next up.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

2 out of 3 Americans dont want this and the rightwing christian nazi's dont care...

This is war.

But I have been saying that for years.

The reason we need to PREPARE physically, is gounion is right, they will if they get the power EXECUTE WOMEN and docs, etc., they will IMPRISON you for Gay sex, etc.

You cant fight that with legislation, not in the short term...RIGHT!
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Libertas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:24 pm 2 out of 3 Americans dont want this and the rightwing christian nazi's dont care...

This is war.

But I have been saying that for years.

The reason we need to PREPARE physically, is gounion is right, they will if they get the power EXECUTE WOMEN and docs, etc., they will IMPRISON you for Gay sex, etc.

You cant fight that with legislation, not in the short term...RIGHT!
I don't like using violent terminology. The right will use that because what they want is a true civil war - because they will use any act of violence by us as the excuse for all their violence.

But that's just me.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:27 pm I don't like using violent terminology. The right will use that because what they want is a true civil war - because they will use any act of violence by us as the excuse for all their violence.

But that's just me.
I am not using violent rhetoric. I am stating the fact that they are coming for us and to do nothing, is insane.

No liberal, no Democrat acts out in violence, but to not defend ourselves is, again, insane.

I am not saying buy a gun. I am not saying buy a baseball bat. I AM saying the day of violence from the right IS COMING, whether in months or years, whether before or after if they are able to arrest Women for having reproductive healthcare or Gay people for having sex.

IF they get the power THAT DAY is coming.

Like I said elsewhere I have a cousin who is a post trump reformed repub who is certain of it. He knows these people, he used to be one of them, sort of.
Last edited by Libertas on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Libertas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:33 pm I am not using violent rhetoric. I am stating the fact that they are coming for us and to do nothing, is insane.

No liberal, no Democrat acts out in violence, but to not defend ourselves is, again, insane.
I dunno what to do, honestly. I know Pride events have begun to be attacked, and with Thomas' call to arms, they see the end game of the possibility that gays can be stripped of their human rights, the right will continue to attack these events with increasing violence in order to try to get violent reactions from the left, so they can have the excuse to kill people, just like Kyle Rittenhouse did.

They want a Civil War. It may happen.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:39 pm I dunno what to do, honestly. I know Pride events have begun to be attacked, and with Thomas' call to arms, they see the end game of the possibility that gays can be stripped of their human rights, the right will continue to attack these events with increasing violence in order to try to get violent reactions from the left, so they can have the excuse to kill people, just like Kyle Rittenhouse did.

They want a Civil War. It may happen.
AND everything you just said, is NO PROBLEM to the board cons...I purposely dont use their names for the reason that this is a board and we would normally have rules about that AND I worry that if you piss one of them off enough they will dox you...so it is a tough call and proves to me at least we should NOT be talking to them AT ALL.

But that is my decision for me, and the board would be boring without them, I guess. What a mess :roll:
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Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:00 pm The ultimate aim of this Supreme Court is to make the Establishment Clause unconstitutional. Just put out decisions that says that the Constitution doesn't mean what it says. Because it's inconvenient to their ultimate goals.

And you're fully on board with this, while pretending you're not in favor of turning our nation into a theocracy.
So the first amendment says
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Now the part “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” is really precise. And you think the Supreme Court will rule that as unconstitutional. That, not surprising for you, is beyond stupid. Delusional to the Nth degree. I mean this is on par with pizzagate, Vince Foster, et Al.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Libertas wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:33 pm All you need to know is they are full on board with a violent takeover of our government.
+++++
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:03 pm So the first amendment says
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Now the part “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” is really precise. And you think the Supreme Court will rule that as unconstitutional. That, not surprising for you, is beyond stupid. Delusional to the Nth degree. I mean this is on par with pizzagate, Vince Foster, et Al.
You've spent much of a thread arguing they can ignore the separation of church and state.

You know the truth is they can do whatever the fuck they want to do, and no one can stop them. Right now they are making their decisions based upon their religious beliefs.

But go ahead, the delusional one is the one that thinks they care about what the Constitution says. They think it says what they WANT it to say.


Call me delusional, but you are the one that told us when they were sworn in, that Kav and Gorsuch would never vote to overturn Roe.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatio ... ted_States

-- Lemon vs. Kurtzmann, 1971

Subsequent to this decision, the Supreme Court has applied a three-pronged test to determine whether government action comports with the Establishment Clause, known as the "Lemon Test". First, the law or policy must have been adopted with a neutral or non-religious purpose. Second, the principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third, the statute or policy must not result in an "excessive entanglement" of government with religion.[52] (The decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman hinged upon the conclusion that the government benefits were flowing disproportionately to Catholic schools, and that Catholic schools were an integral component of the Catholic Church's religious mission, thus the policy involved the state in an "excessive entanglement" with religion.) Failure to meet any of these criteria is a proof that the statute or policy in question violates the Establishment Clause.

[snip][end]

I know many conservative justices have spoken out against Lemon vs. Kurtzmann. They don't like the Lemon Test.

I do, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be used. Sound legal reasoning behind it. The ruling by the Court was 8-1.

Also:
In Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97 (1968), the Supreme Court considered an Arkansas law that made it a crime "to teach the theory or doctrine that mankind ascended or descended from a lower order of animals," or "to adopt or use in any such institution a textbook that teaches" this theory in any school or university that received public funds. The court's opinion, written by Justice Abe Fortas, ruled that the Arkansas law violated "the constitutional prohibition of state laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The overriding fact is that Arkansas' law selects from the body of knowledge a particular segment which it proscribes for the sole reason that it is deemed to conflict with a particular religious doctrine; that is, with a particular interpretation of the Book of Genesis by a particular religious group." The court held that the Establishment Clause prohibits the state from advancing any religion, and that "[T]he state has no legitimate interest in protecting any or all religions from views distasteful to them.

[snip][end]

One could argue the only thing the establishment clause does is prevent the government from declaring any one church the official church of the U.S. One could do that. However, I think Jefferson and Madison felt it also made the U.S. a secular country. It just goes against centuries of court opinions and rulings, though.

This is one of my favorite advocacy organizations.
https://www.au.org/why-religious-freedom-matters/

They agree with Jefferson that separation of church and state and secularism protects religious freedom (not the opposite), and of course, I agree with them.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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America’s True History of Religious Tolerance
The idea that the United States has always been a bastion of religious freedom is reassuring—and utterly at odds with the historical record
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... -61312684/

Future President James Madison stepped into the breach. In a carefully argued essay titled “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments,” the soon-to-be father of the Constitution eloquently laid out reasons why the state had no business supporting Christian instruction. Signed by some 2,000 Virginians, Madison’s argument became a fundamental piece of American political philosophy, a ringing endorsement of the secular state that “should be as familiar to students of American history as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution,” as Susan Jacoby has written in Freethinkers, her excellent history of American secularism.

[snip]

Late in his life, James Madison wrote a letter summarizing his views: “And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

[snip][end]

Full disclosure: I am a huge fan of Susan Jacoby's work, and urge everybody to read it.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by bird »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:23 pm For all their lies about "states rights" - they don't want ANY of it to be legal ANYWHERE.

The National Right to Life Convention just happened to start their national convention today (what bullshit - this was a setup from the day Barrett was confirmed), and this is what they said:



Let's be clear: the only end game for them is for the Supreme Court to declare that life begins at conception, and any abortion is first-degree murder. And contraception and homosexuality is next up.
They are uninterested in building a culture that is pro-mom, pro-baby and pro-life.

So, in order to build said culture here are a few suggestions:

Remove any ban or attempted ban against gays adopting.

Cease any and all attempts at banning contraception and gay marriage.

The assets of all anti-choice groups and their corporate officers shall be liquidated to help provide assistance for mothers and babies.

Any rape that results in the birth of a child shall automatically prevent the rapist from having any contact with the child. The criminal cannot benefit from the fruits of his crime. The rapist shall forfeit any assets to pay for the child. Should the rapist be tried, found guilty and sent to prison his family shall be forced to pay for the child’s needs. In addition they shall have no contact with the child. If or when the rapist is released from prison any wages he may have shall immediately be garnished.

Should a forced pregnancy result in the death of a mother the legislators and SCOTUS justices involved in the criminalization of abortion shall forfeit 50% of their assets to be paid to the woman’s family as compensation as well as for care of the woman’s family. The same shall apply should the child have congenital issues requiring long term or permanent care.

States shall immediately be forced to fully fund Head Start, child care for a mother that must work outside the home, public school education including the elimination of any and all vouchers, school meal programs, expansion of Medicaid, tuition reduction for college/vocational school.

None of this will be reviewable by any court.

On a side but related note, all churches shall lose tax-exempt status.

They say they want to create a culture of pro-mom, pro-baby and pro-life then they will be forced to put their money where their mouths are.

Any pushback will immediately trigger complete restoration of abortion rights throughout the entire country and any U.S. territories. This shall be unreviewable by any court.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

bird wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:21 am They are uninterested in building a culture that is pro-mom, pro-baby and pro-life.

So, in order to build said culture here are a few suggestions:

Remove any ban or attempted ban against gays adopting.

Cease any and all attempts at banning contraception and gay marriage.

The assets of all anti-choice groups and their corporate officers shall be liquidated to help provide assistance for mothers and babies.

Any rape that results in the birth of a child shall automatically prevent the rapist from having any contact with the child. The criminal cannot benefit from the fruits of his crime. The rapist shall forfeit any assets to pay for the child. Should the rapist be tried, found guilty and sent to prison his family shall be forced to pay for the child’s needs. In addition they shall have no contact with the child. If or when the rapist is released from prison any wages he may have shall immediately be garnished.

Should a forced pregnancy result in the death of a mother the legislators and SCOTUS justices involved in the criminalization of abortion shall forfeit 50% of their assets to be paid to the woman’s family as compensation as well as for care of the woman’s family. The same shall apply should the child have congenital issues requiring long term or permanent care.

States shall immediately be forced to fully fund Head Start, child care for a mother that must work outside the home, public school education including the elimination of any and all vouchers, school meal programs, expansion of Medicaid, tuition reduction for college/vocational school.

None of this will be reviewable by any court.

On a side but related note, all churches shall lose tax-exempt status.

They say they want to create a culture of pro-mom, pro-baby and pro-life then they will be forced to put their money where their mouths are.

Any pushback will immediately trigger complete restoration of abortion rights throughout the entire country and any U.S. territories. This shall be unreviewable by any court.
They'll never put their money where their mouth is, because it's all a lie. They don't give a shit for life, they just want to control people's sex lives, and if a woman has sex, she should be punished by being forced to have a baby and raise it.

BTW, nice piece, Bird.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:46 pm Just so we all know. What is the established religion and whose is the head?
Somebody from the Slavery Baptist Convention ought to know better than to try this. Baptists do not believe in heads of churches or related hierarchies; it's one of the points of being Baptist.

So who is the head of the SBC, JoeMemphis?

I'll wait.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:27 am They'll never put their money where their mouth is, because it's all a lie. They don't give a shit for life, they just want to control people's sex lives, and if a woman has sex, she should be punished by being forced to have a baby and raise it.

BTW, nice piece, Bird.
Yeah, that was a good one. Bird never fails to deliver.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

[from Twitter]
SantagoMayer@santiagomayer
You know how SCOTUS said Maine couldn’t exclude religious schools from their voucher program?

Maine just changed the guidelines to exclude schools that discriminate against LGBTQ+ students.
[end]

Nicely done, state of Maine.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:57 am [from Twitter]
SantagoMayer@santiagomayer
You know how SCOTUS said Maine couldn’t exclude religious schools from their voucher program?

Maine just changed the guidelines to exclude schools that discriminate against LGBTQ+ students.
[end]

Nicely done, state of Maine.
Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state
Quote
Post by Bludogdem » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:29 am

All the supreme court ruling said was if you offer the money you can’t discriminate. So the states are free to properly regulate. Works for me.


An earlier post. Good job Maine.
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