Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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JoeMemphis
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:35 am Read what he said, and explain it. He started off stating that we were keeping kids from going to school. He obviously doesn’t understand the news story, or anything about it. Do you?
For someone who prides himself on his reading skills, he sure has trouble reading. Nowhere did I say anyone was keeping kids from going to school. Nowhere. I did ask if anyone was being forced to attend a religious school? Of course the answer is and was no.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

If it isn't, can you explain how it would be Constitutional not to also fund Muslim schools? After all, that's the principle - if you fund one type of religious education, you must fund them all.

The issue did not come up in Maine as Maine does not have enough Muslims in it to have such a school, but precedent has now been set for this question in the future in other states.

Oh look - guess what - the issue has come up before.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2016/inside ... c-schools/

[snip]

Still, many are suspicious of Islamic schools’ goals. Although there are only around 235 Islamic schools in the United States—compare that to more than 6,500 Catholic schools—the web is littered with advocacy groups and blogs questioning their intentions. In 2013, two state lawmakers in Tennessee raised concerns about a school voucher system when they realized funds could go to Islamic institutions. Islamic schools, contends Turkish American scholar Zeyno Baran in Citizen Islam (Bloomsbury Academic, 2011), “are run by Islamists who teach children that their primary loyalty is to Islam rather than to their countries of citizenship.”

[snip][end]

This is an interesting article and I think suggests Muslim students could also benefit from a quality, Muslim-based education ... too.

Thing is, I have a feeling this is going to be where many of your fellow conservatives do a 180 (though again I would dispute what those two lawmakers said, of course).
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Glennfs
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 am If it isn't, can you explain how it would be Constitutional not to also fund Muslim schools? After all, that's the principle - if you fund one type of religious education, you must fund them all.

The issue did not come up in Maine as Maine does not have enough Muslims in it to have such a school, but precedent has now been set for this question in the future in other states.

Oh look - guess what - the issue has come up before.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2016/inside ... c-schools/

[snip]

Still, many are suspicious of Islamic schools’ goals. Although there are only around 235 Islamic schools in the United States—compare that to more than 6,500 Catholic schools—the web is littered with advocacy groups and blogs questioning their intentions. In 2013, two state lawmakers in Tennessee raised concerns about a school voucher system when they realized funds could go to Islamic institutions. Islamic schools, contends Turkish American scholar Zeyno Baran in Citizen Islam (Bloomsbury Academic, 2011), “are run by Islamists who teach children that their primary loyalty is to Islam rather than to their countries of citizenship.”

[snip][end]

This is an interesting article and I think suggests Muslim students could also benefit from a quality, Muslim-based education ... too.

Thing is, I have a feeling this is going to be where many of your fellow conservatives do a 180 (though again I would dispute what those two lawmakers said, of course).
We are not funding the school. We are helping the student. That is the big difference
Not only that but I believe it would be great if the rich elites children who attend Sidwell Friends were exposed to regular people for a change
Last edited by Glennfs on Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:59 am We are not funding the school. We are helping the student. That is the big difference
No you’re giving tax money to the school. And you say it’s helping the student to teach them to hate gays?

Do you support gay rights or not?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:01 am No you’re giving tax money to the school. And you say it’s helping the student to teach them to hate gays?

Do you support gay rights or not?
Talk about a strawman argument. Obviously you are losing the argument so you decided to pull out the old victim card.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:59 am We are not funding the school. We are helping the student.
Are you willing to use taxpayer funds to "help" Muslim students attend one of the 230 Muslim madrassas in the U.S.? Yes or no will do.

Tell me why the Maine decision doesn't set precedent for this in other states.

BTW, nobody's brought it up, but you also should be able to use public funds to send your kid to a Orthodox yeshiva, too. Like this one. Same precedent.

Yeah, I'm a Jew (ethnically) ... yeah I have a problem with this.

Yeshivas Aren’t Teaching Secular Studies. It’s A Shonda For The Jews And Democracy.
https://forward.com/opinion/425134/ny-y ... e-secular/

[snip]

For decades, yeshivas have received millions — if not hundreds of millions — of tax dollars from New York State lawmakers for transportation, security, lunch, textbooks, and even academic intervention services. Some yeshivas cover as much as two-thirds of their budget with public funds.

Yet, we have little to no accountability for that money, even as certain Ultra-Orthodox leaders openly flout state law which requires all nonpublic schools to provide an education that is “at least substantially equivalent” to public schools. That’s because lawmakers have historically prioritized politically powerful voting blocks ahead of student wellbeing, and they’re doing it on our dime.

The fact is we have no idea if these schools are even in compliance with state educational requirements to teach secular studies, but we have reason to suspect that they’re not. According to a report commissioned by Young Advocates for Fair Education (YAFFED) in 2017, Hasidic boys receive only 90 minute or less of secular instruction a day in elementary school, and none in high school. This leaves them unable to read and write in English, perform basic math, or understand the science behind vaccines.

[snip][end]

Again, I have no problem with Orthodox families sending their kids to yeshivas, where they learn every last page in the Talmud. Have at it. However, they are depriving them of many aspects of a true, basic, secular curriculum, while focusing on devotional instruction.

For that reason, once again, I do not want these yeshivas getting government funds.

Oh and BTW -- this is a problem, even in Israel, where 10% of the pop. is Haredi/ultra-Orthodox. The government subsidizes Orthodox institutions in that country too, much to the displeasure of the largely non-Orthodox majority.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 am If it isn't, can you explain how it would be Constitutional not to also fund Muslim schools? After all, that's the principle - if you fund one type of religious education, you must fund them all.

The issue did not come up in Maine as Maine does not have enough Muslims in it to have such a school, but precedent has now been set for this question in the future in other states.

Oh look - guess what - the issue has come up before.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2016/inside ... c-schools/

[snip]

Still, many are suspicious of Islamic schools’ goals. Although there are only around 235 Islamic schools in the United States—compare that to more than 6,500 Catholic schools—the web is littered with advocacy groups and blogs questioning their intentions. In 2013, two state lawmakers in Tennessee raised concerns about a school voucher system when they realized funds could go to Islamic institutions. Islamic schools, contends Turkish American scholar Zeyno Baran in Citizen Islam (Bloomsbury Academic, 2011), “are run by Islamists who teach children that their primary loyalty is to Islam rather than to their countries of citizenship.”

[snip][end]

This is an interesting article and I think suggests Muslim students could also benefit from a quality, Muslim-based education ... too.

Thing is, I have a feeling this is going to be where many of your fellow conservatives do a 180 (though again I would dispute what those two lawmakers said, of course).
Not sure if this was addressed to me but I will reply anyway.

I don’t have an issue with who runs the school. As long as the school meets the state’s education standard (which I assume precludes teaching things like hate, racism, etc). I don’t think anyone wants to fund a skinhead school or a Nazi school or a Islamic bomb making school. I’m pretty sure we can find a way to make this work without discriminating against non Christian religions.

It seems to me that most everything I have heard in opposition to this ruling centers on religion. So how do you feel if the school isn’t a religious school. There was one in my hometown when I was growing up. There is a very large one in my hometown today. There are several in Memphis.
Glennfs
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:13 am Are you willing to use taxpayer funds to "help" Muslim students attend one of the 230 Muslim madrassas in the U.S.? Yes or no will do.

Tell me why the Maine decision doesn't set precedent for this in other states.

BTW, nobody's brought it up, but you also should be able to use public funds to send your kid to a Orthodox yeshiva, too. Like this one. Same precedent.

Yeah, I'm a Jew (ethnically) ... yeah I have a problem with this.

Yeshivas Aren’t Teaching Secular Studies. It’s A Shonda For The Jews And Democracy.
https://forward.com/opinion/425134/ny-y ... e-secular/

[snip]

For decades, yeshivas have received millions — if not hundreds of millions — of tax dollars from New York State lawmakers for transportation, security, lunch, textbooks, and even academic intervention services. Some yeshivas cover as much as two-thirds of their budget with public funds.

Yet, we have little to no accountability for that money, even as certain Ultra-Orthodox leaders openly flout state law which requires all nonpublic schools to provide an education that is “at least substantially equivalent” to public schools. That’s because lawmakers have historically prioritized politically powerful voting blocks ahead of student wellbeing, and they’re doing it on our dime.

The fact is we have no idea if these schools are even in compliance with state educational requirements to teach secular studies, but we have reason to suspect that they’re not. According to a report commissioned by Young Advocates for Fair Education (YAFFED) in 2017, Hasidic boys receive only 90 minute or less of secular instruction a day in elementary school, and none in high school. This leaves them unable to read and write in English, perform basic math, or understand the science behind vaccines.

[snip][end]

Again, I have no problem with Orthodox families sending their kids to yeshivas, where they learn every last page in the Talmud. Have at it. However, they are depriving them of many aspects of a true, basic, secular curriculum, while focusing on devotional instruction.

For that reason, once again, I do not want these yeshivas getting government funds.

Oh and BTW -- this is a problem, even in Israel, where 10% of the pop. is Haredi/ultra-Orthodox. The government subsidizes Orthodox institutions in that country too, much to the displeasure of the largely non-Orthodox majority.
If that child's parents meet the financial standards and that school is accredited then it is that families choice where they send their children.
Today we have a situation where wealthy elites send their kids to the finest private schools.
While the rest of us are left behind.
I would hate to speculate how many inner city children who are as smart as Lebron James are today in prison because they never had a chance to go to StV
Last edited by Glennfs on Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:31 am If that child's parents meet the financial standards and that school is accredited then it is that families choice where they send their children.
This has never been at issue. What are you talking about?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

carmenjonze wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:34 am This has never been at issue. What are you talking about?
We are talking about government assistance so poor children have the opportunity to go to the same elite schools as wealthy elites like Barack Obama's children
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:31 am Today we have a situation where wealthy elites send their kids to the finest private schools.
While the rest of us are left behind.
I would hate to speculate how many inner city children who are as smart as Lebron James are today in prison because they never had a chance to go to StV
I have no idea where you're going on about. There are extremely fine public schools. I happened to have gone to one that educated our newest SCOTUS justice, KBJ. (I'm not lying about this; I would have no reason to; but anyway, it's the truth). Also Jeff Bezos, and our current Surgeon General.

Don't care who this bothers; I don't see why private education is intrinsically superior to public ... though it's a free choice for anybody, just like whether they choose UPS or the Post Office.

Your implication that sending your kids (LeBron or anybody else) to a public school deprives them of opportunities (athletic or academic) and means they will instead go to prison is, well, idiotic.

You have the right to choose an Uber over public transit, UPS over the Post Office, etc., etc. and nobody can stop you; I just don't get why the private choice has to be publicly funded and supported.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Glennfs »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:45 am I have no idea where you're going on about. There are extremely fine public schools. I happened to have gone to one that educated our newest SCOTUS justice, KBJ. (I'm not lying about this; I would have no reason to; but anyway, it's the truth). Also Jeff Bezos, and our current Surgeon General.

Don't care who this bothers; I don't see why private education is intrinsically superior to public ... though it's a free choice for anybody, just like whether they choose UPS or the Post Office.

Your implication that sending your kids (LeBron or anybody else) to a public school deprives them of opportunities (athletic or academic) and means they will instead go to prison is, well, idiotic.
I just know that Central Hower in Akron is a terrible school. Probably has more former students in jail than attended college.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Should be using the past tense. It closed in 2007.

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/cent ... ol-profile

I'd ask the basis for your final speculation, but I know it's pointless.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:35 am We are talking about government assistance so poor children have the opportunity to go to the same elite schools as wealthy elites like Barack Obama's children
:lol: I understand your deep resentments towards the Obamas. It’s part of why this country is coming apart at the seams with white-vigilante violence, Jan 6ths, and tea party->QAnon, 14 years after his election.

But since when do conservative whites GAD about “poor”-anyone, let alone poor children? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 am I just know that Central Hower in Akron is a terrible school. Probably has more former students in jail than attended college.
What in the hell are you talking about?

What does a school that's been closed for the past 15 years have to do with j.s.?
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:45 am Don't care who this bothers; I don't see why private education is intrinsically superior to public ... though it's a free choice for anybody, just like whether they choose UPS or the Post Office.
They talk like this out of self-loathing.

They hate public schools and the children who attend them because they themselves went to public schools and still have FOMO about it, 50-60 years later. :problem:
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Toonces »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:31 am I would hate to speculate how many inner city children who are as smart as Lebron James are today in prison because they never had a chance to go to StV
Glen does like to post some cringeworthy things, doesn't he?
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:59 am We
Who's "we"?
are helping the student
It does not "help the student" for public funds to go to anti-LGBTQ Evangelical education.

Do you think it "helps the student" for public funds to go to an anti-LGBTQ madrassa?

Personally, I can't wait until the Church of Satan sets up a school and charges you for it.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Toonces wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:24 pm Glen does like to post some cringeworthy things, doesn't he?
Glennfs is a white supremacist who believes white nationalist wares.

He's not capable of much else.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by bradman »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:57 am Should be using the past tense. It closed in 2007.

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/cent ... ol-profile

I'd ask the basis for your final speculation, but I know it's pointless.
:lol: Nice try though.

My school district was one of the top districts when i went through the system. The High School i attended was one of the top rated for college placements in the state, and even ranked nationally. The same could be said of their Votech programs. That was 76. Back then the graduating class was 99.9 percent white. Fast forward to my last kids graduation a short few years ago. Same district, same High School, same results. (well, except for the votech program. It seems like they have given up on it.) Only difference? The whites are now the minority. The only constant? Our school levies have always been, and still are, some of the highest in the nation. You get what you pay for.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

bradman wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:53 pm :lol: Nice try though.

My school district was one of the top districts when i went through the system. The High School i attended was one of the top rated for college placements in the state, and even ranked nationally. The same could be said of their Votech programs. That was 76. Back then the graduating class was 99.9 percent white. Fast forward to my last kids graduation a short few years ago. Same district, same High School, same results. (well, except for the votech program. It seems like they have given up on it.) Only difference? The whites are now the minority. The only constant? Our school levies have always been, and still are, some of the highest in the nation. You get what you pay for.
And that is what conservative whites detest the most.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:53 am For someone who prides himself on his reading skills, he sure has trouble reading. Nowhere did I say anyone was keeping kids from going to school. Nowhere. I did ask if anyone was being forced to attend a religious school? Of course the answer is and was no.
And that is a non-sequitur. Look it up. It has nothing to do with the Supreme Court decision.

But you had no idea WHAT the decision was, so you said something stupid.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:11 am Talk about a strawman argument. Obviously you are losing the argument so you decided to pull out the old victim card.
Not a strawman at all. That's what the schools teach that the Supreme Court demand that the government fund.

So answer the question.

But now you say the government should pay full tuition and expenses for poor children to go to fancy private schools.

Are you going to require the private schools admit everyone that applies? Or can they pick and choose who they wish to educate?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:34 pm As a conservative ...
As a conservative, you're full of crap, full of yourself, and full of disinformation.
... I think ...
You guys think what you're told to think, and too lazy to change that condition, even though you're perfectly capable.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:36 pm And that is a non-sequitur. Look it up. It has nothing to do with the Supreme Court decision.

But you had no idea WHAT the decision was, so you said something stupid.
You made the statement as if I said something I never said. If it’s a non-sequitur then it belongs to you.
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