Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:36 pm You made the statement as if I said something I never said. If it’s a non-sequitur then it belongs to you.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You don't even know what the term means.

But you can't deal with the actual story, so you have to make some shit up that has nothing to do with it. You may think it's clever, but it just shows you can't deal with things on an adult level.

So you like the government bankrolling the church, and if they're anti-gay, you're fine with that too.
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Libertas
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:50 pm :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You don't even know what the term means.

But you can't deal with the actual story, so you have to make some shit up that has nothing to do with it. You may think it's clever, but it just shows you can't deal with things on an adult level.

So you like the government bankrolling the church, and if they're anti-gay, you're fine with that too.
Wait a little while and see what board con is fine with, it will blow your mind. Part of you wont want to believe they are for what MAGA will do to us if they can, but board con will figure out a way to be OK with it. This is a real thing.

I just tweeted Ted Lieu, Adam Schiff and Katie Porter and Jefferies that someone MUST go on MEet the Press or similar and do something OUTRAGEOUS to get it viral for the 100 million not paying attention and who dont own TV's.

:twisted:
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Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 am If it isn't, can you explain how it would be Constitutional not to also fund Muslim schools? After all, that's the principle - if you fund one type of religious education, you must fund them all.

The issue did not come up in Maine as Maine does not have enough Muslims in it to have such a school, but precedent has now been set for this question in the future in other states.

Oh look - guess what - the issue has come up before.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2016/inside ... c-schools/

[snip]

Still, many are suspicious of Islamic schools’ goals. Although there are only around 235 Islamic schools in the United States—compare that to more than 6,500 Catholic schools—the web is littered with advocacy groups and blogs questioning their intentions. In 2013, two state lawmakers in Tennessee raised concerns about a school voucher system when they realized funds could go to Islamic institutions. Islamic schools, contends Turkish American scholar Zeyno Baran in Citizen Islam (Bloomsbury Academic, 2011), “are run by Islamists who teach children that their primary loyalty is to Islam rather than to their countries of citizenship.”

[snip][end]

This is an interesting article and I think suggests Muslim students could also benefit from a quality, Muslim-based education ... too.

Thing is, I have a feeling this is going to be where many of your fellow conservatives do a 180 (though again I would dispute what those two lawmakers said, of course).
Some states get it right. We have vouchers for students stuck in schools that aren’t getting the job done. My neighbor is a reading education specialist. Two of her client schools are a Jewish school and a Muslim school. Both schools have voucher students. No restrictions in the voucher program against religious schools. Of course our folks aren’t so stupid as to think the constitution prohibits state funds to support religious schools. If the school is properly accredited it gets the voucher funds.
gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:40 pm Some states get it right. We have vouchers for students stuck in schools that aren’t getting the job done. My neighbor is a reading education specialist. Two of her client schools are a Jewish school and a Muslim school. Both schools have voucher students. No restrictions in the voucher program against religious schools. Of course our folks aren’t so stupid as to think the constitution prohibits state funds to support religious schools. If the school is properly accredited it gets the voucher funds.
Again, if people want to send their kids to religious schools to teach them that gays are evil, they can pay for it out of their own pockets.

But of course, you want the government to fund it.

Just like a conservative.

So when kids come out of religious schools that are funded by the state that teaches them in faith healing and that there is no such thing as germs, did THAT school fail?

I do not believe the government should be funding religion. Period.
Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:26 pm Parents should be free to send their children where they wish.

Taxpayers should not pick up the cost if the schools use the taxpayer/public money to engage in religious activity. Canada can do as it likes. We are discussing U.S. policy.

My problem is I do not see the two schools In Maine in question doing this - separating religious activity and indoctrination from instruction. So yes, to me, this is an issue.
In this distinct case the taxpayers are being deprived a public education in their school system. So they ,as taxpayers, are entitled to the funds. Absent the public school, private schools are the obvious option. As long as properly accredited it is no business of the state as to what school is chosen. And a state actor may not by the first amendment discriminate against a religion. So there’s that. We may not like the thinking of the religious school but in a free country with protections against discrimination its just too tucking bad. Get over it.

And giving money to any religious institutions for services doesn’t come anywhere close to establishing a state religion.
Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:44 pm Again, if people want to send their kids to religious schools to teach them that gays are evil, they can pay for it out of their own pockets.

But of course, you want the government to fund it.

Just like a conservative.

So when kids come out of religious schools that are funded by the state that teaches them in faith healing and that there is no such thing as germs, did THAT school fail?

I do not believe the government should be funding religion. Period.
All I want is for the government to meet its obligation to provide a properly working public school. Providing funds for individual choice is ok. But when the government fails to provide, as in this case, they don’t get to choose. They also don’t get to discriminate.
gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:49 pm In this distinct case the taxpayers are being deprived a public education in their school system. So they ,as taxpayers, are entitled to the funds. Absent the public school, private schools are the obvious option. As long as properly accredited it is no business of the state as to what school is chosen. And a state actor may not by the first amendment discriminate against a religion. So there’s that. We may not like the thinking of the religious school but in a free country with protections against discrimination its just too tucking bad. Get over it.

And giving money to any religious institutions for services doesn’t come anywhere close to establishing a state religion.
So you don't believe in the Separation of Church and State. I do.

And if they teach gay hatred, that's fine with you too. I'm not surprised - unlike Joe and Glenn, you've never pretended to support gay rights. You're fine with funding fundy religious schools that teach hatred.

So, you'd be fine with funding Madrassas teaching Wahhabism, too, right?

How about the Nation of Islam? Should the government fund them too? It's a free country, right?

Because here's the problem: If you fund one, you're going to have to fund them all.
Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:44 pm Again, if people want to send their kids to religious schools to teach them that gays are evil, they can pay for it out of their own pockets.

But of course, you want the government to fund it.

Just like a conservative.

So when kids come out of religious schools that are funded by the state that teaches them in faith healing and that there is no such thing as germs, did THAT school fail?

I do not believe the government should be funding religion. Period.
Well the government funds religious organizations routinely. Its long been held to be constitutional because they’re not so stupid as to think it establishes a state religion.
gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:53 pm All I want is for the government to meet its obligation to provide a properly working public school. Providing funds for individual choice is ok. But when the government fails to provide, as in this case, they don’t get to choose. They also don’t get to discriminate.
So, if the Nation of Islam wants to have a school, no discrimination, right?

All the government needs to do is to fund the schools. Pretty damned simple.

But the whole idea behind vouchers is to DE-FUND actual public schools. Something you don't want to say out loud, right?
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:49 pm In this distinct case the taxpayers are being deprived a public education in their school system. So they ,as taxpayers, are entitled to the funds. Absent the public school, private schools are the obvious option. As long as properly accredited it is no business of the state as to what school is chosen. And a state actor may not by the first amendment discriminate against a religion. So there’s that. We may not like the thinking of the religious school but in a free country with protections against discrimination its just too tucking bad. Get over it.

And giving money to any religious institutions for services doesn’t come anywhere close to establishing a state religion.
^defund-the-public-schools mentality and all its rage, in action.

Religious and institutions are not entitled to anything except the government leaving them alone. You won’t be making this argument for liberal religious institutions, or any other religious institution that isn’t conservative Christian.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:57 pm Well the government funds religious organizations routinely. Its long been held to be constitutional because they’re not so stupid as to think it establishes a state religion.
Sorry, they should not. But that's your whole plan, isn't it? To fund religion and religious instruction. You guys aren't any different that the Wahhabists from Saudi Arabia. You WANT a religious theocracy.
Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:56 pm So you don't believe in the Separation of Church and State. I do.

And if they teach gay hatred, that's fine with you too. I'm not surprised - unlike Joe and Glenn, you've never pretended to support gay rights. You're fine with funding fundy religious schools that teach hatred.

So, you'd be fine with funding Madrassas teaching Wahhabism, too, right?

How about the Nation of Islam? Should the government fund them too? It's a free country, right?

Because here's the problem: If you fund one, you're going to have to fund them all.
Once the voucher system is engaged it’s open to all accredited schools.

So you’re ok with religious discrimination. Good to know. It’s that authoritarian streak.

Fortunately the protections are in place.
Bludogdem
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:59 pm Sorry, they should not. But that's your whole plan, isn't it? To fund religion and religious instruction. You guys aren't any different that the Wahhabists from Saudi Arabia. You WANT a religious theocracy.
Your might be the stupidest fuck on the planet to come with the religious theocracy thing. I said nor implied any such thing. I understand the constitutional consideration and intent, unlike you, and subscribe to fair treatment for all. No discrimination.

Anyone who thinks this could lead to a theocracy is a moron. The government has been doing business with religions since the founding.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:40 pm Some states get it right.
37 states disagree with you.

37 states have Blaine Amendments blocking public funds from religious schools in their constitutions
https://www.thecentersquare.com/nationa ... 6a615.html

Blaine Amendments refer to language in state constitutions that prohibit public funding for schools or educational institutions run by religious organizations. The language in each state constitution varies. Blaine Amendments are named after an amendment to the U.S. Constitution—sponsored by James Gillespie Blaine—that was proposed but never passed.

Thirty-seven states have Blaine Amendments in their constitutions as of 2020. Louisiana's Blaine Amendment was repealed by voters in 1974.

[snip][end]

Maybe these states are filled with moonbats, or they get a principle I've been articulating.

Again, please read the HHS proviso I noted earlier. Yes, HHS will provide funds to religiously operated hospitals. NO, they CANNOT use those funds to discriminate on the basis of religion or sexual orientation, or proselytize and promote religion. It's the latter that constitutes the government establishing religion and failing to separate church and state.

Note this problem is greater when dealing with religious education, as opposed to religious charities or medical services.
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gounion
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:04 pm Your might be the stupidest fuck on the planet to come with the religious theocracy thing. I said nor implied any such thing. I understand the constitutional consideration and intent, unlike you, and subscribe to fair treatment for all. No discrimination.

Anyone who thinks this could lead to a theocracy is a moron. The government has been doing business with religions since the founding.
Our government VERY EXPLICITLY set up a barrier between church and state, and I strongly believe in it.

Your side wants to make their religion into LAW. They are doing it this week. They are going to tear down Roe v. Wade because their religion tells them killing a one-celled creature is murder. The Bible doesn't say that, but they have decided that's what's the truth.

They want to force children to pray to their God. They want to force people to live their life via their religious beliefs. That's simply a fact.

Deny it all you want - and that's the thing, you guys will lie for your religion.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:50 pm :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You don't even know what the term means.

But you can't deal with the actual story, so you have to make some shit up that has nothing to do with it. You may think it's clever, but it just shows you can't deal with things on an adult level.

So you like the government bankrolling the church, and if they're anti-gay, you're fine with that too.
I don’t have a problem with parents deciding where to send their children to school. I don’t have an issue when the government funds that choice for those who don’t have the funds themselves. We don’t live in a country where everyone needs to agree with you on education.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), was a case argued before the Supreme Court of the United States.[1] The court ruled in an 8–1[2] decision that Pennsylvania's Nonpublic Elementary and Secondary Education Act (represented through David Kurtzman) from 1968 was unconstitutional, violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The act allowed the Superintendent of Public Schools to reimburse private schools (mostly Catholic) for the salaries of teachers who taught in these private elementary schools from public textbooks and with public instructional materials.[3]

[snip]

The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test"[4] (named after the lead plaintiff Alton Lemon),[5] which details legislation concerning religion. It is threefold:

The statute must have a secular legislative purpose. (Also known as the Purpose Prong)
The principal or primary effect of the statute must neither advance nor inhibit religion. (Also known as the Effect Prong)
The statute must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. (Also known as the Entanglement Prong)


Factors:
Character and purpose of institution benefited.
Nature of aid the state provides.
Resulting relationship between government and religious authority.

[snip]

The court found that the parochial school system was "an integral part of the religious mission of the Catholic Church," and held that the Act fostered "excessive entanglement" between government and religion, thus violating the Establishment Clause.[1]

[snip][end]

An 8-1 decision of SCOTUS moonbats ... obviously. :roll:
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:09 pm 37 states disagree with you.

37 states have Blaine Amendments blocking public funds from religious schools in their constitutions
https://www.thecentersquare.com/nationa ... 6a615.html

Blaine Amendments refer to language in state constitutions that prohibit public funding for schools or educational institutions run by religious organizations. The language in each state constitution varies. Blaine Amendments are named after an amendment to the U.S. Constitution—sponsored by James Gillespie Blaine—that was proposed but never passed.

Thirty-seven states have Blaine Amendments in their constitutions as of 2020. Louisiana's Blaine Amendment was repealed by voters in 1974.

[snip][end]

Maybe these states are filled with moonbats, or they get a principle I've been articulating.

Again, please read the HHS proviso I noted earlier. Yes, HHS will provide funds to religiously operated hospitals. NO, they CANNOT use those funds to discriminate on the basis of religion or sexual orientation, or proselytize and promote religion. It's the latter that constitutes the government establishing religion and failing to separate church and state.

Note this problem is greater when dealing with religious education, as opposed to religious charities or medical services.
Obviously the government doesn’t have an issue doing business with religious institutions. As has been pointed out, it’s done all the time so the issue isn’t separation of church and state.

I’ve asked the question and have yet to get an answer, would you or the other folks objecting to this ruling have a problem with school choice if the institution delivering the service wasn’t religious? The whole separation argument goes away.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:31 pm Obviously the government doesn’t have an issue doing business with religious institutions.
Yes, BTW, this debate didn't crop up yesterday, perhaps you're familiar with the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hou ... rtnerships

Oddly, Donald Trump, beloved of the evangelicals, left this particular EB office without a director from 2016-2018. Funny, that.

Yes, Joe Biden has continued it.

MHO:
a) I have no problem with HHS giving money to religious operated hospitals, or there being some support for religious charities and community initiatives, provided they pass the Lemon test.
b) there have been numerous controversies regarding the support this and other agencies provide to religious organizations. I don't think those should be ignored. The biggest issue that arose under Bush and never went away is that the types of religious organizations supported (i.e. little or no support to Jewish, Muslim, or neo-Pagan charitable organizations) shows favoritism, which the government should not do.
c) the claim that the Founders had no concern over secularism in education is false, one only needs to read about Jefferson's vision for the Univ. of VA.
https://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_fo ... lar_vision
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:31 pm I’ve asked the question and have yet to get an answer, would you or the other folks objecting to this ruling have a problem with school choice if the institution delivering the service wasn’t religious? The whole separation argument goes away.
It's a separate question, and one I have answered in the past; that answer has nothing to do with THIS topic of THIS thread, so I'm uninterested in providing it again.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by Toonces »

I have no problem with the government funding schools that teach religion, so long as they cannot discriminate.

If the government is sending funding directly, or indirectly (eg: vouchers) to a school, I think it fair that that school not be allowed to discriminate. That means accepting all students, including students that don't practice that religion, students who maybe be gay, trans, or do not conform to their particular views on how a student should be, or the students' parent(s).

From what I've witnessed, this is definitely not the case for some schools, they do discriminate. It would not be surprising, to me, for some schools to complain that the government is infringing on their right to practice their religion as they see fit. I think we can agree that, to some extent, Christian schools are more likely to be given a wider birth than schools of other religions. So then we have a school taking government money, practicing discrimination, and being allowed to do so.

And, yes, the government is funding religious schools, even if they're using a voucher system. For the public system, the government provides the money based on the number of students, they are paying for the school to educate that child. If it's a voucher, the government is still paying for that school to educate the child.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:45 pm It's a separate question, and one I have answered in the past; that answer has nothing to do with THIS topic of THIS thread, so I'm uninterested in providing it again.
I think I know the answer.
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ProfX
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

Toonces wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:54 pm I have no problem with the government funding schools that teach religion, so long as they cannot discriminate.
I guess it depends on what "teaching religion" means.

I "teach (about) religion" ... I discuss religious studies from a social science perspective ... in a public university. I also have no problem with schools doing this in K-12. I have no problem with doing literary or other analysis of the Bible, teaching comparative religion, etc. in school but it seems some conservative (Christian) parents are the ones freaking out about the fact that their kids might ALSO be learning about the Quran, or doing Yoga, or having Halloween parties. (I guess that could be considered a neo-Pagan holiday. :twisted: )

I do not, however, try to teach theology or devotional study of Judaism, Christianity, Rastafarianism, or any other religion. I hold my own spiritual and religious beliefs. I do discuss them on this board. I would call myself an agnostic who acknowledges the cultural benefits of mythology and the social benefits of moral codes and religious community and who has a nondenominational interest in what people variously call spirituality and mysticism. I am not trying to get any student to share in my beliefs.That is most definitely NOT my job. I do NOT indoctrinate.

Again, the U.S. has the Lemon test and this is what I think government money should not be used for: since many parochial and religious schools have a variety of devotional activities and studies ...
a) non-religious or students of a different religion should not be forced to participate in sectarian activities or these funds should be forfeit .. that is religious minority discrimination
b) yes, these schools can engage in teaching "the faith" and doing devotional instruction and daily prayer (they are exempt from Engele vs. Vitale). Fine. Students outside the faith should be able to skip those seminars, and most importantly, under the Lemon test, THAT instruction should NOT be government funded and supported. It should only be supported by private funds.
Last edited by ProfX on Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:54 pm I have no problem with the government funding schools that teach religion, so long as they cannot discriminate.

If the government is sending funding directly, or indirectly (eg: vouchers) to a school, I think it fair that that school not be allowed to discriminate. That means accepting all students, including students that don't practice that religion, students who maybe be gay, trans, or do not conform to their particular views on how a student should be, or the students' parent(s).

From what I've witnessed, this is definitely not the case for some schools, they do discriminate. It would not be surprising, to me, for some schools to complain that the government is infringing on their right to practice their religion as they see fit. I think we can agree that, to some extent, Christian schools are more likely to be given a wider birth than schools of other religions. So then we have a school taking government money, practicing discrimination, and being allowed to do so.

And, yes, the government is funding religious schools, even if they're using a voucher system. For the public system, the government provides the money based on the number of students, they are paying for the school to educate that child. If it's a voucher, the government is still paying for that school to educate the child.
I think there is a basis for some agreement here.
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Re: Supreme Court breaks down wall between church and state

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:06 pm I think I know the answer.
I am not pretending I haven't taken a previous position. I have.

It's just not relevant to the SCOTUS decision we're discussing.

Oh, and one more thing, to make a point clear, re accreditation. This varies by state, but I'll note what the state of Florida says.

https://www.fldoe.org/schools/school-ch ... chool.stml

There is no state law requiring private schools to be accredited, and there is no state regulation of private school accrediting agencies. Some private schools choose to become accredited.

[snip][end]

Most states, I believe, like FL, do not set any accreditation requirements or standards for religious schools, and in general, all private schools.

They (at least particularly the religious ones) MAY be independently accredited by a variety of agencies that claim to accredit "Christian or Biblical schools". How meaningful is that? Normally that is left up to the individual parent of the individual student to decide.

Key point: there is no accreditation standards parochial schools follow. They are not required to do so. Nationally/federally, and in almost all states.

This becomes a matter of state inquiry, once the state provides the funds. Or at least it should.
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