A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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ProfX
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ProfX »

A lot of folks mistakenly claim the earliest aqueducts were Greek or Roman.

In fact, there are many that are far more older.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_(water_supply)

The Minoans were building them around 2000BCE on Crete. The Assyrians built some in the 8th century BCE.

I don't know why we're so stuck on the Mayans. Many New World civilizations built them also, like the Nazca and the Aztec.

But moving back to (post) modernity, I see a lot of potential, too, in water reclamation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclaimed_water

Reclaimed wastewater may not always be desirable for drinking & bathing by people (though it's safe), but it's really ideal for agriculture and irrigation, almost by design. And BTW, that's where a lot of our water is going.

Image

Since 70% of our fresh water goes to irrigation/agriculture (and hey, we gotta eat as well as drink), well, this one is kinda a no brainer.
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gounion
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by gounion »

A great piece by John Oliver about water in the west. It's funny, but it's also a serious piece on the drought with lots of facts. Worth seeing if you really want to understand the issue. And it does talk about the idea of taking water from the Mississippi - only to call it a dumb idea in a hilarious way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtxew5XUVbQ
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:41 am A great piece by John Oliver about water in the west. It's funny, but it's also a serious piece on the drought with lots of facts. Worth seeing if you really want to understand the issue. And it does talk about the idea of taking water from the Mississippi - only to call it a dumb idea in a hilarious way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtxew5XUVbQ
Oliver does it again. His research team and his presentation are second to none. i liked the God thing at the end. 'You got yourselves into this fucking mess, don't expect me to get you out of it'.

i'll say it. It's a no-brainer. From the view of Lake Itasca, we've watched the west wasting water for years now. If you plan on tapping into the Mississippi you're going to have to do it south the Minnesota border. We're not going to supply your bad habits. Quit building and start conserving. Maybe then we can talk about a water supply. Till then...... 'You got yourselves into this fucking mess, don't expect us to get you out of it'.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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bradman wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:27 am Oliver does it again. His research team and his presentation are second to none. i liked the God thing at the end. 'You got yourselves into this fucking mess, don't expect me to get you out of it'.

i'll say it. It's a no-brainer. From the view of Lake Itasca, we've watched the west wasting water for years now. If you plan on tapping into the Mississippi you're going to have to do it south the Minnesota border. We're not going to supply your bad habits. Quit building and start conserving. Maybe then we can talk about a water supply. Till then...... 'You got yourselves into this fucking mess, don't expect us to get you out of it'.
Yep. And he's right - the west has wasted water, and just wants to waste more. Big business is the worst of it. I was surprised to see that Las Vegas is far better than any other city in the west.

But luckily, the liberal federal government is stepping in and dealing with the situation when the states can't. They've got 60 days:
The Colorado River is an economic engine for the west. It supports $1.4 trillion dollars of economic activity annually and 16 million jobs, according to a study by an Arizona State economics professor. Seven states and more than a dozen tribal nations rely on the Colorado River for municipal water supplies and to irrigate their crops.

The river is in the midst of an historic drought. Reservoirs have reached dangerous new lows and the federal Bureau of Reclamation just asked the seven states that rely on the river to cut their water use by a lot. The states have 60 days to make an emergency plan. If they miss that deadline, the authorities will step in and impose cuts.

Speaking before a recent Senate committee, Camille Touton with the Bureau of Reclamation issued a warning: Find a way to use less — close to a quarter less — or the feds will do it for you.

“It is in our authority to act to protect the system. And we will protect the system,” Touton said.

John Entsminger said he heard that as a threat. As head of the Southern Nevada Water Authority, he’s one of the water managers tasked with brokering this emergency conservation deal. And, he said, it’s not going to be easy.

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“Well, I think every sector, every water user, needs to share in the pain,” he said.

The pain will be shared between corporate use, municipal use, and the region’s biggest water suck: farming and ranching.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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SC hasnt fucked our water completely yet? Give em time.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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I'm sure they'll get to water quality once they're through legalizing climate change. The farmers in the central valley put up signs asking how you like having recycled urine watering your crops, not mentioning that they'd have you drinking the stuff if they got their agenda enacted.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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What does a retired engineer think about this idea?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/engineer-her ... 05563.html
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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Number6 wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:02 pm What does a retired engineer think about this idea?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/engineer-her ... 05563.html
Read that one no more than an hour ago. Interesting take.

The Desert Sun has had other interesting opinions. Let the water wars begin....

https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion ... 091680002/
If Midwest doesn't want to share water, fine. But don't ask us for help with your problems
To our supposed "fellow" Americans in Minnesota and other states bordering the Mississippi River who've sent letters to The Desert Sun: Your less-than-friendly replies to the idea of Mississippi water being sent by canal to meet up with the Colorado River is no surprise to us in the West.

You're right! We shouldn't make "our problem" your problem!

For that reason, I'm advocating for ocean desalination preferably via the Gulf of California. Pulling seawater that could be desalinated either in Mexico or California (or both) is much closer than transiting water from the Mississippi.

Despite the fact that our cities that were built, in your opinion, with no thought in mind, we are capable of putting together a plan to resolve our shortage. Why did we develop cities in the desert? What part of better weather year-round here in the West (rather than plowing through snow, flooding, and tornados) didn't occur to you? Maybe you should look at the numbers of households moving south.

So please keep your muddy water. We'll figure this out via our own state governments. But just remember, what goes around comes around, should you need our assistance in the future. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer. You might find our number unlisted.

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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Libertas »

Divided?

I wonder why we are divided?


https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... tG0vopKNPg

Marge Greene: “We need to be the party of nationalism. I’m a christian, and I say it proudly - we should be christian nationalists.”

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When they tell you who they are, LISTEN! Especially white nationalist racists like this!
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

I'm not a retired engineer so I don't know.

Long as we're discussing the SW US.........

Is "Lake Power" the wrong name for "Lake Powell?"

I read "Engineers' Dreams." Most of the ideas were pretty poorly thought out, and the devil was in the details. I don't trust grandiose schemes like these. If they hadn't had some grand dream about making the Imperial Valley into a real estate bonanza by digging a completely gravity-fed canal to the Colorado River that didn't have to go through Mexico, there would be no Salton Sea. We would not be worried about it causing the biggest strike-slip earthquake in the known history of the planet. Its toxic smell would not be going all the way to LA on rare occasion.

Then there's Hetch Hetchy. Aren't they going to try to remove the damn dam? Seems a bit late. We lost a valley as spectacular as Yosemite on that one.

Speaking of Yosemite, it's sure trying to burn this year. I can't keep all the fire storms straight up there. Latest one is the Oak Fire, and it's eating trees like a nuclear blast.

Climate change. Anthropogenic. At one time it seemed like such a good idea to oxidize anything that would do it cheaply enough. We could make energy from the heat and/or expanding gas, despite polluting everything else, and then base a civilization on it.

Oops.

The law of unintended consequences can be a bitch.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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bradman wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:41 pm Read that one no more than an hour ago. Interesting take.

The Desert Sun has had other interesting opinions. Let the water wars begin....

https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion ... 091680002/
If Midwest doesn't want to share water, fine. But don't ask us for help with your problems
My response to them? Fuck you. Iirc, California is losing people but even that is irrelevant. People moving south is not arbitrarily smart. That grand irrigation schemes and other engineering projects made SW agribusiness what it is doesn’t make it smart long term. Let the desert go back to being desert. Yeah, I know a shitload of food is grown there. Let’s spend engineering know how on figuring out how to work within nature as opposed to trying to make nature conform to capitalism.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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Buckminster Fuller was a really interesting cat.

The one thing I get from Spaceship Earth is that humanity needs to evolve toward a different way of harnessing and distributing fundamental resources like water, energy, electricity, etc. There should be a global grid, where every resource can easily go from where it can best be harnessed, to where it is most needed. People noticed that sounded like Marx, and maybe it did but it showed how one engineer approached the problem.

Now this may not be something humanity is ready for. This means not only should the Midwest share water within the West, but humanity should share its water resources globally, with fairness, compassion, and equity to ALL nations. Drought anywhere is a concern for humanity everywhere. As is famine.

Oh yeah. Bucky could dream. In the meantime, we are all still in the Matrix.

The problem is not just the U.S. division between red and blue states, or regions. It's all the divisions of humanity, starting with nation state borders and boundaries, that ensure that we throw away tons of unused and spoiled food, where other people are starving and go hungry. Where we pay farmers to destroy their crops for price fixing, while famines plague the rest of the world.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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Libertas wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:41 pm Divided?

I wonder why we are divided?


https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... tG0vopKNPg





and as I just tweeted
People like Glennfs think we’re supposed to “unite” with these supremacists, which is just an open endorsement of their supremacism. All of them can go jump.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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bird wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:04 pm My response to them? Fuck you. Iirc, California is losing people but even that is irrelevant. People moving south is not arbitrarily smart. That grand irrigation schemes and other engineering projects made SW agribusiness what it is doesn’t make it smart long term. Let the desert go back to being desert. Yeah, I know a shitload of food is grown there. Let’s spend engineering know how on figuring out how to work within nature as opposed to trying to make nature conform to capitalism.
I've been a long-time proponent of mapping where floods periodically occur and building the infrastructure to divert the flood waters to local reservoirs as well as building canals/aqueducts to transport the water to more distant reservoirs. In some or many cases, you may have to have a double-reservoir system where one collects the flood waters and acts as a holding pond for the flood waters containing debris and the other to hold the water "clean" water coming from the holding pond. This way, you don't need a large, expensive project like taking water from the Mississippi River.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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That's two birds with one stone. We need to ameliorate flooding, and other places have drought. That's thinking the Fuller way.

The only issue I see is floodwaters could be full of all kinds of waste matter and material from every possible kind of detritus in the floods (including human corpses)... probably making them even worse than reclaimed water ... but I guess with a thorough cleaning process, it could be usable.

BTW, of course, we still need to deal with climate change, which is driving the excesses of both phenomena.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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gounion wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:52 am Now, I don't know what the Mississippi river level is right now, but this is from Aug 2021:

Image



Instead of thinking this is a no-pain thing that will fix everything, I am not nearly as sanguine as you, Glenn. This yahoo says it will only be a few percent of the river flow, but will it? And what happens when the river is so low barge traffic is stopped?
That photo is from Brooklyn Park. North of Minneapolis. During a drought in Minnesota. Not a target area. The Mississippi Basin, below St. Louis , where the Missouri, Ohio, an Arkansas rivers, major rivers, flow into the Mississippi is the target area. Lot of water. Whole lot.

Here’s the Basin.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... new-01.png

Note the vast array of feeds.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by gounion »

So you've got nothin'.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:03 pm So you've got nothin'.
I have everything. I understand the difference between the northern most area at the start of the Mississippi subject to drought and with minimal systems feeding it and vast water resources of the Mississippi Basin below St. Louis. What you pointed out has no bearing on the subject at hand. And your still, unsurprisingly, too ignorant too understand it
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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Bludogdem wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:15 pm I have everything. I understand the difference between the northern most area at the start of the Mississippi subject to drought and with minimal systems feeding it and vast water resources of the Mississippi Basin below St. Louis. What you pointed out has no bearing on the subject at hand. And your still, unsurprisingly, too ignorant too understand it
I understand that droughts happen everywhere. I've seen years the Mississippi was almost empty. It's okay now, but that's just NOW.

So, taking water from the Mississippi would only work until that part of the nation was in drought.

You haven't dealt with the issue at hand - you just cherry-picked one post to attack, like the loser you are. You have no ability to make any cogent observations or arguments on the subject.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by bradman »

bird wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:04 pm My response to them? Fuck you. Iirc, California is losing people but even that is irrelevant. People moving south is not arbitrarily smart. That grand irrigation schemes and other engineering projects made SW agribusiness what it is doesn’t make it smart long term. Let the desert go back to being desert. Yeah, I know a shitload of food is grown there. Let’s spend engineering know how on figuring out how to work within nature as opposed to trying to make nature conform to capitalism.
i always thought Sam had a point......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0q4o58pKwA

Luggage and U hauls, move to where the water is. Minnesota welcomes all. Keep this in mind though, we are the Land of Ten Thousand Lakes. When it comes to our water resources we are heavily, heavily, regulated. We started back in the late 70's with sewer separation and getting rid of lead pipes, From there we moved on to mitigation/holding ponds to clean water before it reached our lakes and rivers, To now. You can't get near a wetland without properly protecting it. Down in the city, in the reconstruction areas that don't have room for holding ponds are required to put vast underground cistern systems in. Huge concrete boxes, or shells, that are interconnected. Both the inlets and the outlets are connected high, with the connections to the structures connected low leaving some 4ft. between the bottom of the pipe to the bottom of the floor. It allows you to slow the water down so the particulates to settle out before it is let loose into the wetlands which then resupplies our underground water tables. Build a simple parking lot and you have to build a holding pond. Rebuild your road and you pay for storm water gardens/rain water gardens.....

https://www.groundwater.org/action/home ... rdens.html
A rain garden is a garden of native shrubs, perennials, and flowers planted in a small depression, which is generally formed on a natural slope. It is designed to temporarily hold and soak in rain water runoff that flows from roofs, driveways, patios or lawns. Rain gardens are effective in removing up to 90% of nutrients and chemicals and up to 80% of sediments from the rainwater runoff. Compared to a conventional lawn, rain gardens allow for 30% more water to soak into the ground.
Think of it this way. One of our investment properties was an old abandoned potato farm when we bought it. 38 acres in a prime location for future development. 35 years later and all we had left was 5 acres. The rest had been designated wet lands and was, by then, for all practical purposes owned by the Rice Creek Watershed. Couldn't do a thing with it. Couldn't even farm it anymore. While some land owners were pissed off about losing control over some parts of their properties and wanted me to be on the same page as them when it came to the local bitch session at City Hall i'd tell them............."I like drinking clean water, do you"?

The problem i have, From Itasca to New Orleans, the Mississippi has a vast ecosystem. So did the Colorado River. Now we are going to do the same to the Old Muddy? Those flood plains revitalize both dirt and underground water tables. Are we sure we want to fuck with it like the west did the Colorado?
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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carmenjonze wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:16 pm People like Glennfs think we’re supposed to “unite” with these supremacists, which is just an open endorsement of their supremacism. All of them can go jump.
You are so fucking ignorant it isnt even funny. Any person who doesn't agree with you, you label as some sort of miscreant. That old deal we can all hang together or all hang separately is something you need learn.

Unfortunately, we have far too many ignorant people like you on both the left and right which is why we are mired in this era of gridlock. Spoiler alert if enough people have your ignorant belief of go jump, you will see zero.zero of what you want see happen.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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bradman wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:48 amThe problem i have, From Itasca to New Orleans, the Mississippi has a vast ecosystem. So did the Colorado River. Now we are going to do the same to the Old Muddy? Those flood plains revitalize both dirt and underground water tables. Are we sure we want to fuck with it like the west did the Colorado?
Sam Kinison is always a win.

But YES, that's EXACTLY what Glenn wants to do, he wants to fuck with that ecosystem, too.

Now, a SANE person would say we need to figure out how to cheaply desalinate ocean water, since it's a LOT closer to the area than the Mississippi river, but no one has considered conservatives SANE for many years.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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gounion wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:25 am Sam Kinison is always a win.

But YES, that's EXACTLY what Glenn wants to do, he wants to fuck with that ecosystem, too.

Now, a SANE person would say we need to figure out how to cheaply desalinate ocean water, since it's a LOT closer to the area than the Mississippi river, but no one has considered conservatives SANE for many years.
Somehow, I think in today's world the left would never allow the projects which gave us the TVA and the Hoover Dam.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am Somehow, I think in today's world the left would never allow the projects which gave us the TVA and the Hoover Dam.
Yes, it WAS the left that did all that.

NOT the right.

But moving all the water from the Mississippi across the country isn't that bright an idea.

I mean, admit it, how about we figure out how to desalinate ocean water cheaply? Wouldn't THAT be smarter?

Oh, but that'd be SCIENCE, and you guys HATE science.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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Like so many things, it's not a perfect panacea.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... the-ocean/

That said, just like I think figuring out how to do fusion energy sustainably and affordably is key to our future, I also agree we need breakthroughs on desalination...

BTW, I love Sam Kinison, but not all people suffering from famine in the world live in deserts. If only. I get his joke had a larger point, though.
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