A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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carmenjonze
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:22 am https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion ... 746391001/

When I first read this article I thought it was a joke. Then as I got further into it not only is it a legitimate idea. It is something we
need and should do.
Especially when you see how little if the water from the Mississippi would be needed.
It is an infrastructure project that relatively speaking wouldn't cost much. That could be paid for by the users and would benefit everyone.
:? who in the world would willingly unite with the same supremacists intent on making us second-class citizens, again?

Forcing people into second-class citizenship is, by definition, divisive.

Now go ban another book and cheer for the arrest of someone who’s period was late.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:30 am Forcing people into second-class citizenship is, by definition, divisive.
That it is.

Whining that this country is divided because a decades-long, carefully nurtured plot to weaponize the US Supreme Court succeeded is precisely what we don't need right now.

This country is divided because too many people won't accept that the real divisions are between the tiny rapacious minority of "haves" and the vast majority of voiceless "have-nots." The white affluent Protestant old-boy establishment has wired everything to make them look like what America's really about, and to spread the false narrative that everyone else is just along for the ride and should shut up and either contribute cheap labor or just die.

Some of them still haven't gotten over women going to college, let alone other racial and identity groups getting real power at the ballot box. Land of the free and home of the brave, but keep your station in life or else.

We got this from the Brits and we ran with it. We got rid of the monarch and the hereditary titles, but otherwise it's oligarchy all the way.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Glennfs
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Re: A Really Feeat Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:37 am A few things. First, the reader letter-to-the-editor SAYS it will be "fantastically expensive" - whereas you say it wouldn't cost much.

Reality: We don't know, but I'd say it'd be REALLY expensive. It would probably be something like the Alaska pipeline, only BIGGER, to pump enough water to make a difference.

And if Joe Biden proposed it, you would be against it, that it's inflationary and increasing spending, blah blah blah.

It WOULD be one pipeline that a break wouldn't do anything, except maybe flood people out.

But secondly, we need to look at things like continued research into desalinization of ocean water. That's a lot closer to where it's needed.

But you'd have to have engineering studies. I mean, even the great plains are hurting because they've already drained the ogallala aquifer. But I'm sure this has already been looked at.

But my one thought is, we don't have a very good track record of the robbing Peter to pay Paul water stuff, look at what L.A. did to Owen's Valley.

Of course, the one thing that worked back in the day was the Tennessee Valley Authority, but you don't like that because that was socialism. And there aren't many places left that you could dam up even if you wanted too.

But you like the idea of these "easy" fixes instead of dealing in the root problem - climate change. You want to pretend it's not real.
Cost is relative. Considering it would benefit every person in the country the cost would not be that high.
And
Thank you for making my point on if we weren't so divided. If a Republican were to propose it I am sure you would support it

:roll:
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Glennfs »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:39 am I think this is a good idea, especially as I am a fan of Buckminster Fuller.

One of the things he constantly emphasized is we need to figure out better how to share fundamental resources like electricity, energy, and water nationally ... and globally.

Some states are flooding, some states are parched in drought ... it's just rational to think this through and solve that problem. We have to be willing to think in unified ways for resource allocation.
Yes exactly this would because project that every politician should get behind.
I ve driven by and been to possibly ever commercial farm in California.
They are amazing and if they dry up we will see shortages and probably rationing.
If the author is correct and it would only require 1 to 3pct of the Mississippi water we are foolish for not pursuing this solution
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Glennfs »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:50 pm I would be careful when buying a tract of land in the west. You might end up owning just a few inches of top soil because someone else owns the mineral rights and another individual owns the water in the stream that flows through the middle and still another owns the water in the aquifer below your feet so you can’t drill a well. You may not even be able to dig a pond.
Of course that’s what I heard from a couple of professors on a college trip thru the badlands and gold mining territory of New Mexico and Colorado in the 80’s. Things might have changed since then.
[/quote]

Same is true in West Virginia decades ago people sold off their mineral rights
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Glennfs »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:30 am :? who in the world would willingly unite with the same supremacists intent on making us second-class citizens, again?

Forcing people into second-class citizenship is, by definition, divisive.

Now go ban another book and cheer for the arrest of someone who’s period was late.
Closed minded people like you are always part of the problem and never part of the solution.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Glennfs »

ZoWie wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:34 am That it is.

Whining that this country is divided because a decades-long, carefully nurtured plot to weaponize the US Supreme Court succeeded is precisely what we don't need right now.

This country is divided because too many people won't accept that the real divisions are between the tiny rapacious minority of "haves" and the vast majority of voiceless "have-nots." The white affluent Protestant old-boy establishment has wired everything to make them look like what America's really about, and to spread the false narrative that everyone else is just along for the ride and should shut up and either contribute cheap labor or just die.

Some of them still haven't gotten over women going to college, let alone other racial and identity groups getting real power at the ballot box. Land of the free and home of the brave, but keep your station in life or else.

We got this from the Brits and we ran with it. We got rid of the monarch and the hereditary titles, but otherwise it's oligarchy all the way.
So name me one thing conservative that you support
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

1. That kind of shallow thinking is what gets you into trouble. You reduce a two or three dimensional ideological continuum into a one-dimensional straight line.

I have common ground with conservatives on some freedom issues, along with occasionally agreeing about things like maintaining a strong military preparedness for Russian aggression. Actually conservatism isn't monolithic, and in many cases I get along with moderate economically oriented conservatives better than I do with the handful of extreme lefties who think everything's a plot because someone on the Internet said so.

2. I would hope that conservatives do not support returning to the British monarchy as a source of governance and/or stability. They claim to support the Constitution, and that document really is a great piece of work, especially for the time. They'd had it with hereditary monarchs and titled noble lucky sperm clubs. Too bad they hadn't had it with slavery, white male supremacy, and oligarchic election systems, but consider the times. In today's context, a majority of them would probably be pleased that we've taken their ideas and pushed expanding them to actually include other classes, genders, and races.
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Re: A Really Feeat Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:26 pm Cost is relative. Considering it would benefit every person in the country the cost would not be that high.
And
Thank you for making my point on if we weren't so divided. If a Republican were to propose it I am sure you would support it

:roll:
That's not the point I made. I can see lots of roadblocks. I'm betting southern GOP governments in Mississippi-adjoining states, like Tennessee, Louisiana, Arkansas and Mississippi being against it. They would rather the "left coast" dry up and blow away just to spite those hated liberals.

I would have to real REAL numbers about how much would be used - not the numbers of some yahoo in an op/ed. I doubt they are that low - but that's NOT an educated guess. Lots of engineering would need to be done for MY support. And there's been years the Mississippi got so low that they had trouble with shipping. What then? Of course, there are years it's flooding, and they'd love to give up 50% or more of their water then!
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

Forget the Mississippi, there are more practical alternatives.

At some point we have to recognize that North America naturally desiccates west of the Rockies until you get to the Northwest Coast where there are still rain forests. There are large parts of this country that just aren't meant to have a lot of people in them. We have to drop this idea that we can simply keep moving suburbs ever farther into the desert to the point where when you fly over it, you see miles of streets that got graded and then nothing was built there.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by bird »

We have seen piping water from the Great Lakes being floated.

That ain’t gonna happen as they don’t belong to the U.S. alone. Imo, Canada would not stand for it.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

At the rate we're going with Republicans rolling back every law on the books, we'll need a water treaty with Canada at some point. Maybe they'll stop the tar sands oil and sell us water instead.

The US is going back to the 1950s as if nothing's happened since.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:37 pm So name me one thing conservative that you support
There are lots of conservative things I support, but the problem is the GOP is no longer a conservative party - it's the Trump corruption party, that believes in turning our nation back over a century, and loving dictators like Kim and Putin. Plus, you're the party of insurrection and re-electing Donald Trump. So, no, there's nothing I can agree with today's GOP on.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

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gounion wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:02 pm There are lots of conservative things I support, but the problem is the GOP is no longer a conservative party - it's the Trump corruption party, that believes in turning our nation back over a century, and loving dictators like Kim and Putin. Plus, you're the party of insurrection and re-electing Donald Trump. So, no, there's nothing I can agree with today's GOP on.
And next year board cons corrupt pals on the SC end democracy...

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/11076487 ... ure-theory
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:36 pm Closed minded people like you are always part of the problem and never part of the solution.
I am closed-minded to white nationalism, white supremacism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, and anti-immigrant sentiment, among many other related conservative social problems you exhibit.

And keep in mind, if I were THAT closed-minded, I wouldn't be talking to you, or spend any time on this board, at all.

There is absolutely NO reason to be open-minded to people like you, who are actively trying to make me and so many others back into second-class citizens. The fact that you even think so is a function of your self-loathing supremacy complex.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:37 pm So name me one thing conservative that you support
I support protecting myself from conservatism and conservative people.

A lot of you guys are simply killers, or proxy-killers.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:02 pm There are lots of conservative things I support, but the problem is the GOP is no longer a conservative party - it's the Trump corruption party, that believes in turning our nation back over a century, and loving dictators like Kim and Putin. Plus, you're the party of insurrection and re-electing Donald Trump. So, no, there's nothing I can agree with today's GOP on.
I could get with things like government out of the bedroom, government out of the doctor's office, government out of the religious institutions, and vice versa.

The only people who even talk this way anymore are the libertarians, and it's impossible to have any kind of normal conversation with the conservative ones.

The left ones are ok, but then, they're not conservative. So
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by carmenjonze »

This ridiculous con doesn't even deny attempting to make entire swaths of people back into second-class citizens, yet complains about closed-mindedness.

:problem:
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Bludogdem »

Number6 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:53 pm The idea of diverting Mississippi River water to the West is just that, an idea that won't go anywhere. Instead of diverting water from the Mississippi River why not build canals to channel runoff from areas that flood yearly to reservoirs throughout the West.
I’ve had this discussion with friends over the years. Even without flooding carry off high water during rainy season or high rain periods. Set up huge storage basins all over the country and also feed into known aquifers.

Another idea we discussed was an array of coastal desalination operations to feed onto strategic storage basins and aquifers. Have these operations in sunny locations and make them solar powered.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

Replenishing aquifers is a good idea for several reasons. Not just water storage but it also helps with issues like ground subsidence and dust storms.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Number6 »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:05 pm I’ve had this discussion with friends over the years. Even without flooding carry off high water during rainy season or high rain periods. Set up huge storage basins all over the country and also feed into known aquifers.
I'd add once reservoirs/basins are 75-70% full then feed known aquifers.
Another idea we discussed was an array of coastal desalination operations to feed onto strategic storage basins and aquifers. Have these operations in sunny locations and make them solar powered.
Right now, coastal desalination plants require a lot of energy and I don't think there's enough space along our coasts to support solar panels in sufficient quantities to make it work. Recently, a nuclear desalination plant in Carlsbad, Ca. came online and it's capable of producing 50 million gallons of water a day. Considering a household in California uses 43 gallons per day that means this desalination plant can support over 1 million households.

Another method for producing potable water is to turn toilet water to tap water. Our small city is talking about installing a waster water recycling plant next to the golf course to produce enough water to take care of the golf course, parks, and city landscaping. It won't be used for consumption but as water prices rise it would reduce the city's use of water making more tap water available for consumption.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Number6 »

The biggest problem I see with diverting Mississippi River water to the Wests isn't cost or environment but who is going to be displaced or have their property taken for the canals. If this idea is implemented it will be tied up in the courts for many years delaying the need to get water to the West.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by Bludogdem »

Number6 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:36 pm I'd add once reservoirs/basins are 75-70% full then feed known aquifers.


Right now, coastal desalination plants require a lot of energy and I don't think there's enough space along our coasts to support solar panels in sufficient quantities to make it work. Recently, a nuclear desalination plant in Carlsbad, Ca. came online and it's capable of producing 50 million gallons of water a day. Considering a household in California uses 43 gallons per day that means this desalination plant can support over 1 million households.

Another method for producing potable water is to turn toilet water to tap water. Our small city is talking about installing a waster water recycling plant next to the golf course to produce enough water to take care of the golf course, parks, and city landscaping. It won't be used for consumption but as water prices rise it would reduce the city's use of water making more tap water available for consumption.
More and more communities are developing waste water treatment systems you’re describing. Some use natural buffer systems to filter useful nutrients into organic systems.

I like the small nuclear power systems option. There are projects being developed that would provide small fully sealed systems to power neighborhoods.

Another discussion we’ve had is a worldwide network of strategically located, as in where the sun shines all the time, solar powered coastal hydrogen production facilities. There’s one being developed now on a remote desolate area of Africa.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by bradman »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer
The Ogallala Aquifer (oh-guh-LAH-lah) is a shallow water table aquifer surrounded by sand, silt, clay, and gravel located beneath the Great Plains in the United States. One of the world's largest aquifers, it underlies an area of approximately 174,000 sq mi (450,000 km2) in portions of eight states (South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Texas).[1] It was named in 1898 by geologist N. H. Darton from its type locality near the town of Ogallala, Nebraska. The aquifer is part of the High Plains Aquifer System, and resides in the Ogallala Formation, which is the principal geologic unit underlying 80% of the High Plains.[2][3]

Large-scale extraction for agricultural purposes started after World War II due partially to center pivot irrigation and to the adaptation of automotive engines for groundwater wells.[4] Today about 27% of the irrigated land in the entire United States lies over the aquifer, which yields about 30% of the ground water used for irrigation in the United States.[5] The aquifer is at risk of over-extraction and pollution. Since 1950, agricultural irrigation has reduced the saturated volume of the aquifer by an estimated 9%. Once depleted, the aquifer will take over 6,000 years to replenish naturally through rainfall.[6]

The aquifer system supplies drinking water to 82% of the 2.3 million people (1990 census) who live within the boundaries of the High Plains study area.[7]

Demand outstripped supply years ago.

Dead pool.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zkOhEZUueo

Some of the Mayans built vast water cistern systems. It wasn't enough to supply the growing population during prolonged droughts.
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Re: A Really great Idea if We Weren't so Divided

Post by ZoWie »

Not just the fabled Mayans. The part of NM north of ABQ has remnants of indigenous aqueducts. Some of them still carry water. Then of course you have the fountains in Rome. They're mostly decorative now, and various popes have put statuary and keys to the kingdom all over them, but they are the current version of a water project the Romans started. (The river that goes through Rome is shallow, green, and turbid much of the year. It was probably never a viable supply.)

We didn't invent this stuff.

We just put too many cities in places that should still be deserts or, in the case of SoCal, lightly vegetated lowlands with hills of chapparal which burned periodically to spread seeds around. Then we let said cities fight it out with the farmers who grew their food, but also needed water. This fight continues, as reading all the signs they put up along I-5 in the Central Valley will show in a second.
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