EARTH....

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bradman
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Re: EARTH....

Post by bradman »

ProfX wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:14 pm Yep. He's very old. Probably pre-Maya and pre-Aztec.

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispe ... lcoatl.htm

The name Quetzalcoatl literally means "feathered snake". The Nahuatl word quetzalli means "long green feather" (Molina: ), but later came to be applied also to the bird who give these feathers: the Resplendent Quetzal. Quetzal feathers were a rare and precious commodity in the Aztec culture. So the combination of quetzalli "precious feather" and coatl "snake" has often been interpreted as signifying a serpent with the feathers of Quetzal. The meaning of his local name in other Mesoamerican languages is similar. The Maya of Yucatán knew him as Kukulk'an; the K'iche-Maya of Guatemala, as Guk'umatz, both names can be translated as "feathersnake".

The Feathered Serpent deity was important in art and religion in most of Mesoamerica for close to 2,000 years, from the Pre-Classic era until the Spanish conquest. Civilizations worshipping the Feathered Serpent included the Olmec, Mixtec, Toltec, Aztec, who adopted it from the people of Teotihuacan, and the Maya.

The cult of the serpent in Mesoamerica is very old; there are representations of snakes with bird-like characteristics as old as the Olmec preclassic (1150-500 BC). The snake represents the earth and vegetation, but it was in Teotihuacan (around 150 BC) where the snake got the precious feathers of the Quetzal, as seen in the Murals of the city. The most elaborate representations come from the old Quetzalcoatl Temple built around 200 BC, which shows a rattlesnake with the long green feathers of the quetzal.

Teotihuacan was dedicated to Tlaloc, the water god, at the same time Quetzalcoatl, as a snake, was a representation of the fertility of the earth, and it was subordinate to Tlaloc. As the cult evolved, it became independent.

In time Quetzalcoatl was mixed with other gods, and acquired their attributes. Quetzalcoatl is often associated with Ehecatl, the wind god, and represents the forces of nature, and is also associated with the morning star (Venus). Quetzalcoatl became a representation of the rain, the celestial water and their associated winds, while Tlaloc would be the god of earthly water, the water in lakes, caverns and rivers, and also of vegetation. Eventually Quetzalcoatl was transformed into one of the gods of the creation (Ipalnemohuani).

The Teotihuacan influence took the god to the Mayas, who adopted him as Kukulkán. The Maya regarded him as a being who would transport the gods.
[snip][end]
[bold]Not to mention their interest in the cave gods.

How does one gather and attain the kind of information that rolls so easily off your tongue?
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ProfX
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Re: EARTH....

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Go to graduate school and have a advisor who did research in the area? :D (I've done a wee bit myself, but mostly under his supervision.)

I was in Chiapas in 1995. The Zapatista uprising had just begun. It was an interesting time. I still have a doll of "Subcommandante Marcos" I brought back from Yucatan.

Short of that, of course, there are awesome works on the Maya to be found in your public library. :mrgreen:

Eh, I've said this. Trump constantly wailed about how NAFTA was a raw deal for the U.S. Yeah, it was, and it also was one for Canada, but he never talked about that. More relevant to our discussion, it was a massive raw deal for Mexico, and in particular for indigenous communities like the Maya.

This is why I always say Trump was never really "progressive" (or even properly focused) on trade. He constantly talked about how deals like NAFTA screwed the U.S. in favor of other countries.

That's wrong - NAFTA screwed the U.S., and Canada, and Mexico. In Mexico, it devastated the tortilla industry and the system of collective farming the Maya used, which is why they launched the Zapatista uprising.

So if it screwed all three countries, who DID it benefit, and why did they all sign it? I would argue once you think about that, you can see why there is a problem with free trade agreements like NAFTA, but as with so many other things, Trump never really understood what it was. This is also why, BTW, his so-called "NAFTA 2.0" never fixed most of the problems with it.
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Re: EARTH....

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bradman wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:31 pmHow does one gather and attain the kind of information that rolls so easily off your tongue?
Via a real education.
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Re: EARTH....

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Education can help with understanding of processes. After that it's just keep your eyes and ears open and don't believe everything talking heads or chatty posts on screens tell you is the truth. We as a society have developed a good immunity for slanted newspaper stories, but too often when someone is a moving picture that looks you in the lens, oops I mean eye, the tendency is to value their information somewhat more. Don't do that. We ask for more information when buying a used car, but often not when being pitched on a used ideology.

The public library is helpful, and those who paid their alumni dues can often use the campus library if they live anywhere near it.

In the case of climate change, you can understand it every bit as well as the "experts" just by using your eyes and ears. Ask questions. Why doesn't it rain as much as it used to? When it does rain, why is it heavier than before? Why does the ocean turn red and smell funny more summers than it used to? Why are there more fires?

What part of all this is explained by natural cycles, and what part isn't? What is the native wisdom on the subject? They lived closer to the earth and sometimes they understood it better.

What are the underlying economics? Why do the same companies always seem to benefit from these changes? Why did logging go from forest thinning to clearcutting? Why does there seem to be a shortage of just about everything? There are processes here.

Stay curious.
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Number6
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Re: EARTH....

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ZoWie wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:03 am Education can help with understanding of processes. After that it's just keep your eyes and ears open and don't believe everything talking heads or chatty posts on screens tell you is the truth. We as a society have developed a good immunity for slanted newspaper stories, but too often when someone is a moving picture that looks you in the lens, oops I mean eye, the tendency is to value their information somewhat more. Don't do that. We ask for more information when buying a used car, but often not when being pitched on a used ideology.

The public library is helpful, and those who paid their alumni dues can often use the campus library if they live anywhere near it.

In the case of climate change, you can understand it every bit as well as the "experts" just by using your eyes and ears. Ask questions. Why doesn't it rain as much as it used to? When it does rain, why is it heavier than before? Why does the ocean turn red and smell funny more summers than it used to? Why are there more fires?

What part of all this is explained by natural cycles, and what part isn't? What is the native wisdom on the subject? They lived closer to the earth and sometimes they understood it better.

What are the underlying economics? Why do the same companies always seem to benefit from these changes? Why did logging go from forest thinning to clearcutting? Why does there seem to be a shortage of just about everything? There are processes here.

Stay curious.
Some people are too educated and don't know much while others have little education and are knowledgeable. It reminds me of a line by the comic Jerry Clower who said "You is educated beyond your intelligence." You make a good point when you said "stay curious." Natural education comes by asking questions and followup questions. Simply having a diploma from high school or college doesn't make a person intelligent. It's how a person uses the knowledge.
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bradman
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Re: EARTH....

Post by bradman »

ProfX wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:42 pm Go to graduate school and have a advisor who did research in the area? :D (I've done a wee bit myself, but mostly under his supervision.)

I was in Chiapas in 1995. The Zapatista uprising had just begun. It was an interesting time. I still have a doll of "Subcommandante Marcos" I brought back from Yucatan.

Short of that, of course, there are awesome works on the Maya to be found in your public library. :mrgreen:

Eh, I've said this. Trump constantly wailed about how NAFTA was a raw deal for the U.S. Yeah, it was, and it also was one for Canada, but he never talked about that. More relevant to our discussion, it was a massive raw deal for Mexico, and in particular for indigenous communities like the Maya.

This is why I always say Trump was never really "progressive" (or even properly focused) on trade. He constantly talked about how deals like NAFTA screwed the U.S. in favor of other countries.

That's wrong - NAFTA screwed the U.S., and Canada, and Mexico. In Mexico, it devastated the tortilla industry and the system of collective farming the Maya used, which is why they launched the Zapatista uprising.

So if it screwed all three countries, who DID it benefit, and why did they all sign it? I would argue once you think about that, you can see why there is a problem with free trade agreements like NAFTA, but as with so many other things, Trump never really understood what it was. This is also why, BTW, his so-called "NAFTA 2.0" never fixed most of the problems with it.
{chuckle} i barely made it thru K-12. If it hadn't been for a half dozen teachers that were able to break thru i would have been like most of the yayhoo's i run with. The height of intellectual curiosity there is knowing the firing order of a Chevy V-8 (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 btw. :) Name 5 things engine does? Cools, cushions, cleans, seals and lubricates. Odd eh. First time i heard that it was committed to memory, but remember what year Columbus sailed the ocean blue and i get brain farts.)

Do they still make libraries? i still have a library card but i think it expired somewhere around 1978. :)

So, i have settled for a Youtube algorithm in the shop that feeds me my desires. The guys would rather it was background music playing but screw 'em. My shop, my rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9YwfTerAdA

1:02:00 in is what i've been trying to explain.
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Re: EARTH....

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bradman wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:55 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9YwfTerAdA

1:02:00 in is what i've been trying to explain.
I like that video, there's some nice work on it. I appreciate that. There are some really great documentaries on youtube.

Unfortunately, there's also plenty of crap. I have an ex student that keeps telling me to check out videos by this dude named Young Pharaoh. Uh, listened for about 5 minutes, felt like this guy was the Black version of Alex Jones, and said thanks, but no thanks.

Internet literacy may be dead, but at least in my class, you don't get to leave without me getting into it. :mrgreen:
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Re: EARTH....

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ProfX wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:07 pm I like that video, there's some nice work on it. I appreciate that. There are some really great documentaries on youtube.

Unfortunately, there's also plenty of crap. I have an ex student that keeps telling me to check out videos by this dude named Young Pharaoh. Uh, listened for about 5 minutes, felt like this guy was the Black version of Alex Jones, and said thanks, but no thanks.

Internet literacy may be dead, but at least in my class, you don't get to leave without me getting into it. :mrgreen:
Uhmmmm.......ya.......i couldn't do more than a couple minutes. No thank you. Pharaoh would never make my algorithm.

Once i got by the bs my algorithm started feeding me the good s***......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFKy7DJsCY

That one better explains LiDAR. Which seems to have started to change thinking on the size of it all.

i still can't find the one i stumbled across on the tv one night. (It was a pleasant surprise to find a good old fashion documentary on the tube.) In that one they took core samples from stalactites in caves. They were able to trace seasonal rainfall going back centuries. In the case of the cities that seemed to have had it residents just get up and walk away without showing signs of war, the pattern matched. The record of droughts, or lack of rainfall, coincided with the rise and fall of some Mayan cities.
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ZoWie
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Re: EARTH....

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YouTube is good as long as you have some idea of the credential, or lack thereof, of the people posting to it. There are some nice introductions to some pretty complicated theories, such as what electricity really is and isn't. There's also an awful lot of the kind of conspiracist crap that gives Internet a bad name.

Unfortunately, climate became a political football early on, and that shows in much of what has been written and said about it. One does best by asking a lot of questions, and just observing the general deterioration of the various self-maintaining systems that we know we're disrupting but continue to disrupt for economic reasons. You don't need a Ph.D. in anything, and in fact you don't need a lot of book learning at all. You need eyes and ears, and to stay curious. That's how I do it. You can go off into nowhere looking at theories and equations and calculus and stuff, but it'll still be nowhere and meanwhile common sense tells you that something is getting out of balance.

I think the point regarding the Mayans is that they were spread out over a wide area and probably attributing their long and complex history to a small number of global changes is overly reductionistic. Sorry if I sounded reductionistic. My feeling on the Mayans is that there were a lot of them, some of them ran into some hard times, and some stuff happened that will require additional study. We're talking about a very long time frame in a big area, and there were a lot of processes going on.
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ProfX
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Re: EARTH....

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Education doesn't and shouldn't end with a diploma. I personally think one should continue learning until dead. Too many people stop at whatever terminal point. Carmen is absolutely right that especially now more than ever, the Internet gives people an opportunity to continue the learning process. You can use it just for cat videos, porn, and e-poker tournaments. But the other opportunities are also out there. Too many people have this view that once they are done with the requirements of formal education, there's no more learning to be done. That's a shame. I love being in a university setting because I keep being able to attend seminars by my colleagues on their latest research and findings. I love that.

All I can say is I would never argue a degree is proof of anything. Examples: Ted Cruz, J.D. Vance, and many other folks with Ivy advanced degrees. :D

Intelligence is a hard thing to assess. I will only repeat I never call people stupid for who they are, that's usually a stereotype. I call people stupid for what they do. Forrest Gump was totally right on that. I don't know what smarts are there in Teddy's head, but he sure acts stupid.

Unlike Matt Gaetz, I don't believe people can be overeducated. On the other hand, I do think they can be undereducated. And Trump said he loved those folks. You can't assess undereducation by a credential or degree level - I wouldn't - I think it shows up in other ways, particularly a refusal to realize you're being played by a con artist. That is why he loves the undereducated. :|

As for climate, I'm not saying one needs a degree in climatology to see something is going on. I absolutely agree the evidence for that is mounting just by noticing changes here and elsewhere. But that said, since there are people who say what is happening here on Earth is nothing new and is just a repeat of previous climate cycles - that is where the climatologists and their data come in real handy. Because once you look at that data, you can definitely see something is going on that has NOT happened in previous millennia. The warming trends are steeper, sharper, more sudden than have ever been seen in past records. All I will say is no other explanation for WHY this is the case seems to fit the data better - not sunspots, not orbital wobbles, not cosmic rays - than levels of greenhouse gasses, which are largely anthropogenic.

Now that we know the science, I agree the next tough step is the policy. And then the next set of arguments begin.
Last edited by ProfX on Wed May 04, 2022 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EARTH....

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BTW I find the firing order of that engine to be quite interesting.

My current ride has a boxer engine. It's a racing design where the cylinders are laid out flat and fire across from each other. Someone likened the action to fighters exchanging blows. It helps equalize the balance of the car in tight corners.

--------

And yes, I do agree that advanced degrees don't necessarily create a well educated person. They offer credential in a certain field, but as we all know they don't necessarily make you an expert in other ones. Behold the number of academically respectable thinkers in one field who have had some pretty repugnant opinions otherwise.
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Re: EARTH....

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As I've said, once you specialize in a field of study, your highest level of expertise becomes in that area.

But it also helps you understand and appreciate the expertise of others. Some people find that foolish - well, fine, the next time you fly a plane, make sure it was built by rank amateurs, not people with skill in engineering. The claim that expertise doesn't matter is RIDICULOUS.

The only thing I will point out is the benefit of a higher education is it helps you assess the consensus of experts in other fields, whether we are discussing climatology, building collapse dynamics, or virology.

There may be some folks who think there is something better than expert consensus. Weird. As I keep saying, I can't see what that would be. I don't know of a better alternative, and "gut feeling" is surely not a better alternative.
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Re: EARTH....

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But you wouldn't hire a botanist to design your airplane.

And the expert consensus is that humans are a primary cause of climate change.
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Re: EARTH....

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ZoWie wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:56 pm But you wouldn't hire a botanist to design your airplane.

And the expert consensus is that humans are a primary cause of climate change.
a. of course not, and b. of course yes. I'm just countering a point of view (not yours) expressed here that it's not important to pay attention to experts.

But again, returning to the point I'm really trying to make:

Yes, the Heartland Institute probably can find, and pay, some meteorologist like Dixie Lee Ray to claim that humans play no role in climate change.

It's more important, BTW, that close to 90% of climatologists think so, given that climatologists are the ones who most closely model, study, and research the phenomenon.

Just as BTW, it may well be true that one economist claims that masking has no benefit in protecting against COVID, or there is one biologist who thinks COVID-19 is manmade, but it's more important that just about everybody in virology and public health has a different consensus.

It's sorta like you should pay attention to poll averages more than single polls.

I think it's more important to note expert consensus, than just to say "this or that expert says X or Y".
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Re: EARTH....

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ProfX wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:24 pm Education doesn't and shouldn't end with a diploma. I personally think one should continue learning until dead. Too many people stop at whatever terminal point. Carmen is absolutely right that especially now more than ever, the Internet gives people an opportunity to continue the learning process. You can use it just for cat videos, porn, and e-poker tournaments. But the other opportunities are also out there. Too many people have this view that once they are done with the requirements of formal education, there's no more learning to be done. That's a shame. I love being in a university setting because I keep being able to attend seminars by my colleagues on their latest research and findings. I love that.
My dad told me about meeting an old friend at his 50th high school reunion. The guy worked for the FAA after WWII and eventually was in one of the top executive positions in the FAA in Washington, DC. My dad asked him how he did that he said after he graduated college, he kept taking college courses. When a position in DC opened up, his manager told him he should apply for it, which he did. After he was hired, he asked why was he chosen over younger people with more recent college degrees. The answer, he was the only one who kept learning by taking college courses. Moral, never stop learning.
All I can say is I would never argue a degree is proof of anything. Examples: Ted Cruz, J.D. Vance, and many other folks with Ivy advanced degrees. :D
As a professor of mine once said, a degree doesn't mean you're smart; it only means you completed college courses. The thing a degree does is open more doors for you.
Intelligence is a hard thing to assess. I will only repeat I never call people stupid for who they are, that's usually a stereotype. I call people stupid for what they do. Forrest Gump was totally right on that. I don't know what smarts are there in Teddy's head, but he sure acts stupid.
Intelligence, for me, is how you use knowledge, not how much you know.
Unlike Matt Gaetz, I don't believe people can be overeducated. On the other hand, I do think they can be undereducated. And Trump said he loved those folks. You can't assess undereducation by a credential or degree level - I wouldn't - I think it shows up in other ways, particularly a refusal to realize you're being played by a con artist. That is why he loves the undereducated. :|
I disagree with people can't be over-educated. There's the old saying "They who can do, do. Those who can't, teach." Basically, it means there are people who can explain all aspects of a job, issue, or an item but, for some reason, they simply cannot make it work. On the other side, there are those who have basic knowledge of the same thing and can make it work. As for the undereducated Trump voter, their problem is not using critical thinking and/or asking questions. For many of them, it's their default setting.
As for climate, I'm not saying one needs a degree in climatology to see something is going on. I absolutely agree the evidence for that is mounting just by noticing changes here and elsewhere. But that said, since there are people who say what is happening here on Earth is nothing new and is just a repeat of previous climate cycles - that is where the climatologists and their data come in real handy. Because once you look at that data, you can definitely see something is going on that has NOT happened in previous millennia. The warming trends are steeper, sharper, more sudden than have ever been seen in past records. All I will say is no other explanation for WHY this is the case seems to fit the data better - not sunspots, not orbital wobbles, not cosmic rays - than levels of greenhouse gasses, which are largely anthropogenic.

Now that we know the science, I agree the next tough step is the policy. And then the next set of arguments begin.
A degree in climatology isn't necessary for the average person to see the effects of climate change. But we rely on those with the degrees in climatology to quantify and document it and then to provide their theories/observations in terms politicians and average people can understand.
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Re: EARTH....

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Number6 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 6:05 pm Intelligence, for me, is how you use knowledge, not how much you know.
Concur. Of course, there is the problem that the less you know, the less there is to utilize or apply.

The only other thing I would add is, I see a limit to that insofar as I think there are things worth knowing that I can't utilize. For example, how the universe began I am very interested in.

I don't know how I would use that. I don't think I'm ready to try and create more. :D But I sure want to know it. And the only reason I'm making this point is it is often made by people who like to defund programs in universities that can't be shown to be, at least, from their point of view, "practical," whether that be astronomy, the humanities, or the arts.
I disagree with people can't be over-educated. There's the old saying "They who can do, do. Those who can't, teach."
Needless to say, of course, as a teacher, I consider that a mindless anti-teacher slogan.

I would not disagree with the point that there are lots of bad teachers, ... I will not dispute your point that a good part of pedagogy is helping show why knowledge can be useful. But by useful, I mean to something beyond just your corporate earning potential. John Dewey thought it could help make people into better citizens, and I agree.

None of that involves what some people call "indoctrination".
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Re: EARTH....

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I never stopped taking college courses. Hell, even had I stuck to movies, I'd have needed a lot more smarts on digital audio and video than I got in my degree courses. I got those smarts, until I decided to take another path, then I went to a different school for that too.

The world never stops changing and we shouldn't either.

An advanced degree, to some extent, does demonstrate that the holder is able to study complex subjects and learn enough to contribute once they get out and get some seasoning. What it doesn't do is confer credibility in unrelated fields. It demonstrates that you CAN think and learn, not that you are automatically thoughtful and learned in all fields. The road to hell is paved with great European thinkers who had good ideas on one subject but who otherwise were dangerously reactionary or naive when it came to social issues.
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Re: EARTH....

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Oh sure, Herbert Spencer misunderstood Darwin's point, and we've been plagued by Social Darwinism ever since.

Shockley, who helped create the transistor, really believed some terrible and wrong things about eugenics, "race," and IQ.

Again, just to make my point concise.

I am an expert on one narrow slice of the social sciences. If you haven't figured out which discipline that is at this point, that's on you. I am not going to willingly jeopardize my secret identity. Maybe just to Lana Lang. :D

I am so totally not an expert on climatology or building construction or demolition, or virology. Never would claim to be. All I would say is I can look at debates and recognize where the expert consensus is. In general, BTW, I usually suggest how you too can do this at home. It doesn't require an advanced degree.

The 9/11 people who claim the Twin Towers were demolished by a controlled demolition are wrong. I know that not because I am anything approaching an expert on building construction or demolition. But I do know how to read the papers by people who are.
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Re: EARTH....

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ProfX wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 6:17 pm Needless to say, of course, as a teacher, I consider that a mindless anti-teacher slogan.

I would not disagree with the point that there are lots of bad teachers, ... I will not dispute your point that a good part of pedagogy is helping show why knowledge can be useful. But by useful, I mean to something beyond just your corporate earning potential. John Dewey thought it could help make people into better citizens, and I agree.

None of that involves what some people call "indoctrination".
I was afraid you might take that as anti-teacher but that not what I was implying. Let's see if I can explain it better. There are people who have the knowledge on how to do something and can teach others how to do it but when it comes to the mechanics of doing it, they can't. In my career field, we had a person who wrote the training manuals for our jobs and he was great at it and teach others. However, in putting that information from the training manuals into actual use he had difficulty. Some people have the knack for teaching, others have the knack for doing, and most people have the knack for doing both.
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Re: EARTH....

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Both of you make good points. The guy who knows how the machine works is not necessarily the one who has the experience to do actual work with it.

> conspiracies

I actually did study up a bit on controlled implosion of structures, just enough to know that it's not relevant to 9/11. They'd have been weeks planting charges all through both towers and WTC 7, and there are better explanations that square more with Occam's Razor as well as the physics of the matter.

In general, conspiracy theories tend to be leaps from facts to conclusions without intervening analysis of the facts. They're usually the easy way out. A is true and B is probably true, so obviously it was all some kind of a plot that got us to C. Oh, of course. Don't have to prove it by finding the plotters and asking them under oath............... no, actually, it would be much nicer if the theorists did do that, but that's not their thing. Spinning ideas on the Internet is their thing. Oh, of course JFK and RFK are returning to the living in Dealy Plaza any day now to usher in the Second Coming. Of course. I read it on a blog so it has to be true.

I've spun some conspiracies on this board, but I assure you that I researched them thoroughly. When I say that Putin had a hand in the election of drumpf, it's because I have spent months following the money and determining who hired what experts to do exactly the right kind of disinformation that likely, not definitely because nothing's definite in politics, but likely had a lot to do with targeting and swinging just enough of the right key precincts to turn a couple of blue states red.

It's not because drumpf and Putin were buddies. That goes to why a conspiracy might have happened, not how they did it or even if they did it. You need more for that conclusion. Even so, I'm only about 80% sure that Putin had something to do with it.

But that's just an example. In fact, it's often where I part company with much of what passes for a left in this country.
Apathy leads to tyranny. There's no stasis on a moving train.
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rainwater
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Re: EARTH....

Post by rainwater »

the only humans who found the collapse of maya "mysterious" were the corps clear cutting more land.
it makes more sense to literally state...'climate change is a result of deforestation'.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... -30863026/
Why Did the Mayan Civilization Collapse? A New Study Points to Deforestation and Climate Change ---
A severe drought, exacerbated by widespread logging, appears to have triggered the mysterious Mayan demise

...Why did the Maya, a remarkably sophisticated civilization made up of more than 19 million people, suddenly collapse sometime during the 8th or 9th centuries? Although the Mayan people never entirely disappeared—their descendants still live across Central America—dozens of core urban areas in the lowlands of the Yucatan peninsula, such as Tikal, went from bustling cities to abandoned ruins over the course of roughly a hundred years.
..sounding familiar. 150years and 'us' anglos have wiped out this side, the merican, continent, as well as half
the plant earth. yay wallst.


...Arizona State University analyzed archaeological data from across the Yucatan to reach a better understanding of the environmental conditions when the area was abandoned. Around this time, they found, severe reductions in rainfall were coupled with an rapid rate of deforestation, as the Mayans burned and chopped down more and more forest to clear land for agriculture. Interestingly, they also required massive amounts of wood to fuel the fires that cooked the lime plaster for their elaborate constructions—experts estimate it would have taken 20 trees to produce a single square meter of cityscape.
again repeat today. like a bad mini series.

....the rapid deforestation exacerbated an already severe drought—in the simulation, deforestation reduced precipitation by five to 15 percent and was responsible for 60 percent of the total drying that occurred over the course of a century as the Mayan civilization collapsed. The lack of forest cover also contributed to erosion and soil depletion.
..
The collapse is especially intriguing because it seemingly occurred at “a time in which developed a sophisticated understanding of their environment, built and sustained intensive production and water systems and withstood at least two long-term episodes of aridity,” says B.L. Turner, the lead author of the ASU study. In other words, the Maya were no fools. They knew their environment and how to survive within it—and still they continued deforesting at a rapid pace, until the local environment was unable to sustain their society.
how much more familiar can this sound?
Last edited by rainwater on Wed May 04, 2022 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Who are these..flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it. Fuck them.
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bradman
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Re: EARTH....

Post by bradman »

And i'm sucking it all up. 8-)

The latest conversation, to me, proves that links can be highly over rated.

Not that links aren't vitally valuable. It's just, i dunno, refreshing to hear opinions instead of links. Opinions make me wonder where as links sometimes don't.

Isn't that the way we come up with new thoughts? New theories? New dreams? Better defined wishes that are outside of the box?
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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rainwater
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Re: EARTH....

Post by rainwater »

bradman wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:19 pm And i'm sucking it all up. 8-)

The latest conversation, to me, proves that links can be highly over rated.

Not that links aren't vitally valuable. It's just, i dunno, refreshing to hear opinions instead of links. Opinions make me wonder where as links sometimes don't.

Isn't that the way we come up with new thoughts? New theories? New dreams? Better defined wishes that are outside of the box?
since the Smithsonian offered me a job After coming to see the Forest which we built at the museum as part of 5 tier eco system..ill
take the Smiths opinion over most others.

HGs, 2legs, roamed, moved around. once they collapsed they moved again. sorta like the unsustainable texans now moving to the rockies. sadly, the rockies now cant sustain them either.

over population is a bitch. with a "supreme court" allowing women no choices.

not the first time happening on this small planet earth.
Who are these..flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it. Fuck them.
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ProfX
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Re: EARTH....

Post by ProfX »

Again, for a contrary point of view,

Evidence disputing deforestation as the cause for the collapse of the ancient Maya polity of Copan, Honduras
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0904760107

These results refute the former hypothesis that the ancient Maya responded to their increasingly large urban population by exhausting, rather than conserving, natural resources.

[snip][end]

I could just offer my opinion, but I would prefer to point people to scientific research on the question. I have not done sediment core sampling or anything else in the region. So I'll point to people who have.

The fall of the Maya civilization was bloody and worsened by a 200-year drought
https://mashable.com/article/maya-civil ... ate-change

[This is the key part I would focus on]

However, drought can't explain why everyone in Maya society abandoned their cities and villages.

In the vast expanse of the southern lowlands, Inomata and Triadan said people deserted some flourishing population centers before the drought even hit.

"Why did the southern region seem to be doing well, and then why were they the first to leave and not come back?" asked Triadan. "I don’t think we can reduce it to climatic issues."

The Maya civilization, then, declined in different ways in different areas, over a few centuries.

"The situation in each of these cities wasn’t the same," noted Triadan.

[snip][end]

I'm not going to dispute deforestation may have exacerbated a long drought that hit the region. It didn't create it.

But you still have to answer a question: if it were the sole or main cause, why were cities abandoned BEFORE the drought hit them? You have to deal with that question. Which points, as I keep saying, to a more complex problem.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
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ProfX
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Re: EARTH....

Post by ProfX »

rainwater wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:45 pm over population is a bitch. with a "supreme court" allowing women no choices.
Aaaaand ... we again come to the heart of the problem. We can debate how and why the Maya Classic period ended, but really, this is the point we keep coming back to. Arguments about the past are always about the present.

I'm all for reproductive freedom and choice ... which also includes not supporting programs of forced sterilization (noted in earlier threads).

Overpopulation and Environmentalism
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/overpopu ... mentalism/

While 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global CO2 emissions, ‘population control’ keeps us focusing on individual action instead of larger, system-wide change. Instead of identifying the role of climate villains and the governments that enable environmental and climate destruction, this argument takes us in a dangerous direction. Over time, environmental groups have fed this flawed, dangerous reasoning.

The ‘population control’ concept has racist origins

The Population Bomb, a book which first popularized this idea, was based on the author Paul Ehrlich’s experience in a crowded city in India. It advocates for incentives and coercion to control the population—specifically targeted at non-white people. Even today when people talk about overpopulation, they are often talking about China, India, and other primarily non-white countries in the Global South. In the US, ‘population control’ has come in the form of forced sterilization of Black and Brown mothers. It has been used to justify ecofascist attacks, like the El Paso mass shooting, where the white supremacist shooter cited anti-immigration rhetoric based in the overpopulation myth to justify targeting and killing immigrants in order to compensate for the environmental costs of white American lifestyles.

Like any racist narrative, ‘population control’ has real-life consequences.

In reality, people from the Global South have much lower emissions per capita, so reducing our population would not solve the climate crisis. According to a study from Oxfam in 2015, “someone in the richest 10 percent of citizens in India uses on average just one quarter of the carbon of someone in the poorest half of the population of the United States.” Most population control arguments focus on developing countries with negligible environmental impacts, rather than affluent white countries—which upholds white supremacy.

The best way to address the climate crisis is through pressuring the companies who are the root cause, and through sustainable, renewable, just and equitable distribution—not by reducing the number of people on Earth.

[snip][end]

Let's see: I'll keep saying it till people pay attention: the U.S. right now is IN NEGATIVE POPULATION GROWTH. If you subtract immigration.

Most of the population growth on Earth right now is occurring in what is called "The Third World" or periphery. Africa, Asia, and Latin America, mostly.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
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