The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

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gounion
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The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

Folks, isn't it funny that all our conservatives are shocked - SHOCKED! - that the Supreme Court will be knocking down Roe after all these decades of the GOP promising that's what they would do if they got enough Justices on the Court to do so?

And OF COURSE, not ONE of them SUPPORTS the Court knocking down Roe, the think they've been voting for all this time?

Somehow, today, you can't find ONE conservative or Republican that's running a victory lap for the thing they've worked toward for half a century?

Does anyone else smell the bullshit?
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by Glennfs »

That is because of the potential political fallout and not all conservatives are anti abortion.
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gounion
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:08 pm That is because of the potential political fallout and not all conservatives are anti abortion.
Yep, you suddenly can't find a SINGLED DAMNED Republican that didn't support Roe!

How conveeeenient! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Drak
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by Drak »

gounion wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:05 pm Folks, isn't it funny that all our conservatives are shocked - SHOCKED! - that the Supreme Court will be knocking down Roe after all these decades of the GOP promising that's what they would do if they got enough Justices on the Court to do so?

And OF COURSE, not ONE of them SUPPORTS the Court knocking down Roe, the think they've been voting for all this time?

Somehow, today, you can't find ONE conservative or Republican that's running a victory lap for the thing they've worked toward for half a century?

Does anyone else smell the bullshit?

They’re the dog that caught the car.
gounion
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:08 pm That is because of the potential political fallout and not all conservatives are anti abortion.
Are you anti-abortion? Do you believe a fetus is a person and abortion murders that life?

Yes or no?
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:33 pm Are you anti-abortion? Do you believe a fetus is a person and abortion murders that life?

Yes or no?
No I am not anti abortion because it has been the law for 50 years.
However abortion does end a human life and I believe that after we are all long gone and abortions are obsolete.
People will look back at us and consider us barbaric. As they judge us based on the morality of their time.
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ProfX
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by ProfX »

Collins and Murkowski have a bill that would, essentially, codify Roe into federal legislation. It is a bit more limited than the one being sponsored by Democrats, but covers a lot of the same ground.

https://19thnews.org/2022/02/collins-mu ... on-rights/

Ok - SENATE conservatives - here's your chance. AFAIK, not one other Republican has cosponsored the bill. Why not?

It died because it only got 46 votes. Not the 60 needed for cloture. Again. This tells me no other Republicans voted for it. Why?
Last edited by ProfX on Thu May 05, 2022 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:37 pm No I am not anti abortion because it has been the law for 50 years.
However abortion does end a human life and I believe that after we are all long gone and abortions are obsolete.
People will look back at us and consider us barbaric. As they judge us based on the morality of their time.
So you are in favor of murdering babies? Really?
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:38 pm So you are in favor of murdering babies? Really?
Again I know it is immoral and ends a human life. But, because it had been with us for 50 years I am opposed to ending it.

But, let's not forget you support the party that believes it is ok to abort a baby 3 minutes before it is born
BTW I have a grandson that the dr advised my daughter to abort.
The boy is fine but will need a kidney some day. I guess our lives would be better off if that child were dead
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:40 pm Again I know it is immoral and ends a human life. But, because it had been with us for 50 years I am opposed to ending it.

But, let's not forget you support the party that believes it is ok to abort a baby 3 minutes before it is born
BTW I have a grandson that the dr advised my daughter to abort.
The boy is fine but will need a kidney some day. I guess our lives would be better off if that child were dead
...So you don't stand for your beliefs in human life for political reasons?
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:44 pm ...So you don't stand for your beliefs in human life for political reasons?
No it is much deeper than that. Abortion ends an innocent life. Of that there is no denying.
If it weren't law and just now being debated I would oppose it.
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ProfX
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by ProfX »

Late term 3rd trimester abortions under Roe can only be ordered for medical reasons, by a physician, and are usually a) to save the life of the mother or b) based on the fact that the born fetus wouldn't survive for more than a few moments, anyway, and has a terminal condition.

Roe does not allow voluntary abortion in the third trimester. In fact, not after 26 weeks.

Can't speak for other people, but yeah, I'm fine with that. They also, BTW, are exceedingly rare, are like less than 1% of all abortions.

BTW: I believe a fetus is a living thing. So are sperm and ova. So are acorns, tadpoles, slime molds, and mosquitos. Yet we have people called exterminators. They spray and kill mosquitos. It is not murder to kill mosquitos, or some exterminators would be facing a lot of charges. :D

It is something that becomes more and more a human being over time, but a zygote is not a person, anymore than an acorn is a tree.

I just don't think it is a human life with human personhood and all the rights that confers until birth. That said, the Roe decision does set the viability threshold as one where its path to acquiring potential full personhood is so far along, voluntary abortion after that point ceases, and again I am OK with that. The Roe framework is good.
Last edited by ProfX on Thu May 05, 2022 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:46 pm No it is much deeper than that. Abortion ends an innocent life. Of that there is no denying.
If it weren't law and just now being debated I would oppose it.
No, your view is quite debatable.

But it sounds to me that you are doing the same thing that you denounce Dems of doing. Like saying that Obama probably supported gay marriage, but said he didn't when it was unpopular.

Aren't you doing the same thing? Not supporting your actual belief for political reasons?
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by gounion »

ProfX wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:48 pm Late term 3rd trimester abortions under Roe can only be ordered for medical reasons, by a physician, and are usually a) to save the life of the mother or b) based on the fact that the born fetus wouldn't survive for more than a few moments, anyway, and has a terminal condition.

Roe does not allow voluntary abortion in the third trimester. In fact, not after 26 weeks.

Can't speak for other people, but yeah, I'm fine with that. They also, BTW, are exceedingly rare, are like less than 1% of all abortions.

BTW: I believe a fetus is a living thing. So are sperm and ova. So are acorns, tadpoles, slime molds, and mosquitos. Yet we have people called exterminators. They spray and kill mosquitos. It is not murder to kill mosquitos, or some exterminators would be facing a lot of charges. :D

I just don't think it is a human life with human personhood and all the rights that confers until birth. That said, the Roe decision does set the viability threshold as one where its path to acquiring potential full personhood is so far along, voluntary abortion after that point ceases, and again I am OK with that. The Roe framework is good.
Yes, I believe in the third trimester, you can make a valid point that this is close to being a person, and I think that view holds a lot of merit.

But trying to convey personhood and Constitutional protections to a single-cell? I call bullshit. This is about sexual control of women, NOT supporting life.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

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You know what ends innocent life? Punishing women with ectopic pregnancies and septic uteruses. You know what else? Unaffordable, out of reach health care. You know what else? War. You know what else? Lack of support and programs after someone is born. Then there’s the free for all pro gun laws. This isn’t a party of pro life when they are pro all of the above. These are evil people who want power over everyone else. They don’t care about life, and neither do the people who vote for them.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

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Drak wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:00 pm You know what ends innocent life? Punishing women with ectopic pregnancies and septic uteruses. You know what else? Unaffordable, out of reach health care. You know what else? War. You know what else? Lack of support and programs after someone is born. Then there’s the free for all pro gun laws. This isn’t a party of pro life when they are pro all of the above. These are evil people who want power over everyone else. They don’t care about life, and neither do the people who vote for them.
Great points, Drak.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

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Yeah, the thing is, the Catholic Church only declared as dogma "life begins at conception" in the 19th century with the Papal Encyclical Humana Vitae.

So this is what bothers me. When RW Catholics say "the Church has always taught this doctrine" - I call bullshit. No it did not. Thomas Aquinas actually taught something quite different.

Of course, this is a secular country, so whatever your religion teaches really shouldn't matter as far as secular law. Kennedy, Kerry, and now Biden, all Catholics, also all understood that.

Looking at the law in America historically, it's actually the case that most of colonial America did not consider abortions legally actionable until after "quickening," a term for when you can first feel the first kicking & movements of the fetus. Interesting fact: this is right around the same time brainwaves can be detected, and the viability threshold in Roe. Now that said, there really were no surgical techniques for abortion until the 19th century. But the reality is midwives have known about herbal abortifacients for millennia. And before there was a surgical method, that was what was used. Today we have RU-486.

As Carmen posted, the really strict anti-abortion laws in this country didn't get passed until the late 19th century or early 20th - as surgical techniques began to develop - AND more importantly the eugenics movement was taking off.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:37 pm No I am not anti abortion because it has been the law for 50 years.
This is a lie you repeat to yourself in print. Why do you do that?

You guys are pro-rape, pro-incest, and will say nothing as miscarriages are criminalized.

You've only supported these state-level rulings and legislation until the present day, including the ones signed by DeSantis, Oklahoma, Mississippi, and Texas.

Most of all, you're anti-abortion because you're deeply misogynist and do not believe in physical, reproductive autonomy.
However abortion does end a human life and I believe that after we are all long gone and abortions are obsolete.
People will look back at us and consider us barbaric. As they judge us based on the morality of their time.
No person with a history of voting for authoritarian white-conservative policies has any business invoking morality or the word "barbaric."
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:40 pm Again I know it is immoral and ends a human life.
War is immoral and ends human lives, plural.

Your warmongering party is the party of death.

#prolife
But, because it had been with us for 50 years I am opposed to ending it.
This is a lie you deceive yourself with over, and over, and over.
BTW I have a grandson that the dr advised my daughter to abort.
The boy is fine but will need a kidney some day. I guess our lives would be better off if that child were dead
You vote for the party intent on overturning Roe, Griswold, Obergefell, and Bostock, because you guys are authoritarians.

The concept of consent and autonomy of women and girls is offensive to conservatives. At least the Taliban and ISIS admits to being the violent state authoritarians they are.
... the party that believes it is ok to abort a baby 3 minutes before it is born ...
:? link to any such policy or policy statement, please.

Meanwhile, I can point you right to the part of the Republican Party platform that intends to overturn Obergefell.

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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:09 pm Yep, you suddenly can't find a SINGLED DAMNED Republican that didn't support Roe!
They are the same people who celebrated MLKs murder, but today put “content of character/ color of their skin” in their anti-Affirmative Action and anti-CRT laws.

Then they trot out Alveda King and parade her around like a trophy when it’s time to get the government to punish the pregnant sluts for them.

Same exact dishonest people.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

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Drak wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:00 pm You know what ends innocent life? Punishing women with ectopic pregnancies and septic uteruses. You know what else? Unaffordable, out of reach health care. You know what else? War. You know what else? Lack of support and programs after someone is born. Then there’s the free for all pro gun laws. This isn’t a party of pro life when they are pro all of the above. These are evil people who want power over everyone else. They don’t care about life, and neither do the people who vote for them.
These freaked-out conservative Christians like Joe’s Slavery Baptist Convention don’t believe in innocence of life, once a person has been born. Hard stop.

Their nonsensical Original Sin theologies won’t let them.

If someone is raped or targeted for incest, they brought it on themselves, or they wanted it, or both. Not because a rapist impregnator made a conscious choice to be a rapist. :?

In fact, they’ll even tell you THEY are the victims of a seducer. :? :problem:

Conservatives want to re-establish archaic laws based on this misanthropic worldview.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

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Don’t Let Samuel Alito Fool You: Ending Abortion Isn’t About Protecting Black Life
https://sports.yahoo.com/don-t-let-samu ... 58394.html

Along with the faulty science, dated legal precedent and partisan claims in Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito’s draft opinion ending abortion rights, he included a pernicious myth: Abortion is Black genocide.

“Some such supporters have been motivated by a desire to suppress the size of the African American population,” Alito wrote in the draft, published by Politico. “It is beyond dispute that Roe has had that demographic effect. A highly disproportionate percentage of aborted fetuses are Black.”

The idea that abortion is a secret tool for Black genocide has been pushed by anti-abortion activists and conservatives for years. Latching on to the statistic that the abortion rate for Black people is higher than any other racial group, activists have peddled the idea that pro-choice and reproductive rights are all part of a secret plot to reduce the Black population.

“It’s a false thing to say and it’s grounded in racism and white supremacy,” said Marcela Howell, the president and CEO of In Our Own Voice, a reproductive rights organization focused on Black people.

[snip]

The argument suggests, Howell explained, that Black people “have no agency over our lives. We fell victim to Planned Parenthood and other people telling us to abort our children and commit genocide.”

Black people accounted for 38% of abortions in 2019, compared to 33% for whites, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Black people make up approximately 13% of the population, while white people make up 60%.

There are countless other factors at play here: Black people are less likely to have access to reproductive health care, comprehensive sexual education and health insurance, all of which leads to a higher abortion rate.

Still, the abortion-as-genocide argument lives on with anti-abortion extremists.

The anti-choice right often cites Planned Parenthood founder, Margaret Sanger, a white nurse who advocated for birth control use. She also believed in eugenics and promoted birth control as a way to stop certain people deemed undesirable from having children. Planned Parenthood long ago denounced Sanger’s beliefs as racist and ableist— but that has not stopped right-wing conservatives from claiming that the organization is in the business of controlling the Black population.

[snip]

But for all the concern about Black fetuses, anti-abortion activists have yet to show concern for the ever-increasing Black maternal death rate, which is also a product of lack of access to health care and structural racism. A report on 2020 pregnancy-related deaths found that the rate for Black people is triple that of whites.

World famous tennis superstar Serena Williams came close to death after giving birth to her daughter in 2017. When she tried to alert doctors that something was wrong, they were slow to listen to her demands. This is not an uncommon phenomenon.

And to Howell, the reason why it happens is not that dissimilar to the bogus argument that abortion is Black genocide: “Maybe she doesn’t know her own body.”

Of course, the leaked draft doesn’t mention Black maternal deaths while pontificating about Black fetuses. Alito isn’t exactly known for championing Black rights.

[snip][end]

Black communities also have an extremely high infant mortality rate in the U.S., as well as maternal mortality.

Should also be noted that Alito cited his colleague Thomas as one of the sources for his "black genocide" claim.

BTW, I would say Margaret Sanger's views on eugenics are ... complicated. There is no denying she sought funding and support from eugenicists. But at least in some of her writings, she rejected some eugenic ideas. In any case: just like the Sierra Club and other groups have moved on from John Muir, it is incorrect to say PP has a eugenic agenda today. Many of its leaders are African-American.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by marindem01 »

ProfX wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:38 pm Collins and Murkowski have a bill that would, essentially, codify Roe into federal legislation. It is a bit more limited than the one being sponsored by Democrats, but covers a lot of the same ground.

https://19thnews.org/2022/02/collins-mu ... on-rights/

Ok - SENATE conservatives - here's your chance. AFAIK, not one other Republican has cosponsored the bill. Why not?

It died because it only got 46 votes. Not the 60 needed for cloture. Again. This tells me no other Republicans voted for it. Why?
We should take what we can get and then go back and amend later.
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Re: The Supremes: Our board conservatives are SHOCKED!!!

Post by ProfX »

It won't go anywhere unless more Republicans than Murkowski and Collins support it.

Again, my question, especially to those who vote for Republicans: why won't other Republicans cosponsor the bill? I understand they have a problem with the lack of religious exemptions for say Catholic hospitals in the Dem bill. Fine - Collins' bill doesn't have it.
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