Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

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Glennfs
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by Glennfs »

bird wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:01 am Nah. That is the GOP’s concern. They’re paranoid. They not only don’t believe what you posited, they don’t want any discussion about, well, virtually anything that they think is contrary to their distorted “morals”.
How about the teachers who are evangelical christians is it ok for them to share their views too?
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ProfX
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

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Views on what?

All Engel vs. Vitale says is they can't lead students in mandatory class-time prayer or worship.

The coach Joe mentioned earlier -- I see no problem with it -- if they were athletes who were voluntarily meeting with him to pray after football games or practices ... totally allowable. All it says is he can't make the entire team engage in mandatory prayer at the beginning of a mandated practice or football game.

An evangelical Christian teacher in a public school science class telling the class the Earth was created in 6 days ... well, I do think her supervisor ought to discuss with her her responsibilities to teach scientifically accurate information ... yeah.

I would also have an issue if she had mandatory Bible readings at the start of every class, and things like that. I'm perfectly fine with teachers discussing the Bible in a literary or academic context, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having students read it and discuss it from an academic perspective. To force them to do it devotionally with her during class-time ... no, not acceptable. Send your kids to a parochial school if you want that.

Other than that, I need more than just a vague question.

My general view is in a class room - now personally for me, of course, I would say beyond just there - but in a class room, if one expresses views, they should be backed up by academic studies, evidence, and facts. If she's doing that, fine. She may have a "view" that taking the COVID vaccine allows Bill Gates to implant nanobots in your brain. If she can't support that claim with evidence, it doesn't belong in a class room.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:08 am How about the teachers who are evangelical christians is it ok for them to share their views too?
Hi, Mister Apples/Oranges.

Can a devout Muslim “share their views”? Whuddubbout an atheist?

You’re using religion here as a red herring to avoid the topic of your own deeply-rooted homophobia and transphobia.

As I’ve told you two blithering conservative idiots many, many, many times: teachers, aides, admins, or other school officials cannot lead students in prayer or scripture reading or any other proselytizing activities.

As I JUST said yesterday, look up Engel v Vitale (1962).

A guy saying to a student that “my husband and I went hiking this weekend” to the kindergarten class is not “sharing a view,” it’s stating a fact, just like some Evangelical woman saying “my husband and I went hiking this weekend” to her kindergarten class.

You guys are so perverted and hell-bent on grooming children into the conservative lifestyle, you conflate these two things.

No, no Evangelical Christian, Catholic, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, teacher or other school official is allowed to lead prayers or Quran or Bible readings or Bhagavad Gita Recitation Club.

The fact that you even think that an Evangelical proselytizing and grooming young people into rightwing Christianity is somehow equivalent to a teacher talking about their spouse says a lot about the conservative groomer mentality. Also says a lot about how easy it is for you guys to project your own groomer culture onto LGBTQs and label US the perverts.

You guys have been doing this for so many decades, it’s like the air you breathe. :problem:
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carmenjonze
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:48 pm So what you are telling me is that teachers are incapable of handling such questions in a way that question doesn’t turn into a detailed prolonged discussion on sex with 8 years olds and also doesn’t do lasting damage to the psyche of said 8 year old.

Is that the concern?
You guys should really stay out of these conversations if you’re unable to think rationally about them.

In what alternate galaxy do teachers discuss “sex with 8 year olds” that does “lasting damage to their psyche”?

You should also take a class in English grammar and usage. You really need to re-word that phrase, “a prolonged discussion of sex with 8 year olds,” Joe Memphis.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:17 am Views on what?

All Engel vs. Vitale says is they can't lead students in mandatory class-time prayer or worship.

The coach Joe mentioned earlier -- I see no problem with it -- if they were athletes who were voluntarily meeting with him to pray after football games or practices ... totally allowable. All it says is he can't make the entire team engage in mandatory prayer at the beginning of a mandated practice or football game.

An evangelical Christian teacher in a public school science class telling the class the Earth was created in 6 days ... well, I do think her supervisor ought to discuss with her her responsibilities to teach scientifically accurate information ... yeah.

I would also have an issue if she had mandatory Bible readings at the start of every class, and things like that. I'm perfectly fine with teachers discussing the Bible in a literary or academic context, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having students read it and discuss it from an academic perspective. To force them to do it devotionally with her during class-time ... no, not acceptable. Send your kids to a parochial school if you want that.

Other than that, I need more than just a vague question.

My general view is in a class room - now personally for me, of course, I would say beyond just there - but in a class room, if one expresses views, they should be backed up by academic studies, evidence, and facts. If she's doing that, fine. She may have a "view" that taking the COVID vaccine allows Bill Gates to implant nanobots in your brain. If she can't support that claim with evidence, it doesn't belong in a class room.
Religion is a red herring and form of whattabboutery these perverts use to avoid their own cognitive dissonance about human sexuality and Christian proselytizing.

For starters, both of these people are homophobic and transphobic as hell.

For two, they’re only capable of thinking of “religion” in terms of Evangelical, rightwing Christianity.

Lol I’d love to see JoeMemphis’s reaction if a Muslim coach lead the football team in prayer to Allah before the game. :problem:

Hey, football coach may well be an imam and the same kids may be showing up to Friday prayers with him. That’s a context out of school and is part of what freedom of religion and freedom of association is. But these guys would freak TH out at that scenario and call for the coach to be fired.

Conservatives don’t understand this, because freedom to them in the first place is making the Muslim kids say Christian prayers in public schools.

And also forcing Catholic kids to say Protestant prayers in public schools.

And also forcing LGBTQ teachers and other school officials back into closets.

This is literally a KKK agenda that matches what that group was organizing nationwide 100 years ago. Literally, the same mentality. Anita Bryant’s whole campaign against gay teachers was a reaction to a Florida anti-discrimination measure.

Funny how these groomers and proselytizers think an out-queer teacher is the “groomer” just by existing, when they’re mad because actual conservative groomers aren’t allowed to groom students into forced Christianity, anymore. :problem:

They are also deathly silent on their own sexually-perverted coaches and the Gym Jordan politicians who prop them up. Pople are objects to conservative men, and if it’s some 15 year old in their sights, they think they’re entitled to that person. Doesn’t matter if it’s a girl or a boy or a non-binary kid, everyone else was put here for their taking to serve them at their leisure. These board cons are silent on the literal predation and grooming in their own ranks.
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bird
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by bird »

Glennfs wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:08 am How about the teachers who are evangelical christians is it ok for them to share their views too?
Nope. Religion except as a study of comparative religion has no place in schools. Evangelicals want to proselytize then they need to be teaching in a private religious school. The religious right would not countenance comparative religion being taught in public schools. They should consider themselves lucky that there is a separation of church and state.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by carmenjonze »

bird wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:00 pm Nope. Religion except as a study of comparative religion has no place in schools. Evangelicals want to proselytize then they need to be teaching in a private religious school. The religious right would not countenance comparative religion being taught in public schools. They should consider themselves lucky that there is a separation of church and state.
Separation of church and state actually saves them, even as hostile as they are to the concept.

These conesrvative white bigots would perish of fits if a Muslim teacher "shared their views." let alone actually lead student prayers to Allah or made kids read Quran verses.

Separation of church and state is what prevents this from happening, and it should.

No child should be subjected to religious proselytizing of any kind. The religious right is currently peddling the old LGBTQ = "predators" and "groomers" campaign, while they and their constituents are the predators.

And at the same time, Glennfs's objections aren't about religion. These objections are about getting the government to suppress minorities, including sexual and gender minorities. They're finding out that's not so easy to do.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by JoeMemphis »

bird wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:00 pm Nope. Religion except as a study of comparative religion has no place in schools. Evangelicals want to proselytize then they need to be teaching in a private religious school. The religious right would not countenance comparative religion being taught in public schools. They should consider themselves lucky that there is a separation of church and state.
Maybe that’s the point bird. Not everybody shares the same set of values on these very sensitive and sometimes controversial issues. There are some values that kids should get at home from their parents. It’s not the states job. So if teachers feel it’s important to instruct students in such matters, they need to get buy in from the parents. That’s all this is. Teachers don’t have sole discretion with other peoples minor children. I don’t understand why it’s that difficult to understand. The fact that it is perhaps supports the need for such a law.
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by bird »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:27 pm Maybe that’s the point bird. Not everybody shares the same set of values on these very sensitive and sometimes controversial issues. There are some values that kids should get at home from their parents. It’s not the states job. So if teachers feel it’s important to instruct students in such matters, they need to get buy in from the parents. That’s all this is. Teachers don’t have sole discretion with other peoples minor children. I don’t understand why it’s that difficult to understand. The fact that it is perhaps supports the need for such a law.
Welp, I think that I can explain it. There actually is no need for such laws. The driver is not so-called parental involvement/consent. The driver is fear, period. NO child is being indoctrinated, groomed or any other bullshit term/buzzword/dog whistle. That needs to be repeated: NO CHILD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED, GROOMED OR ANY OTHERR BULLSHIT TERM/BUZZWORD/DOG WHISTLE. Fear is a seller. It is a vote driver. Gin up fear over some imaginary issue and you get these results. ALL of this derives from multiple different historical sources that have been dredged up and repackaged: Leo Strauss, Russell Kirk, William F. Buckley, the John Birch Society, the Brown v Bd. of Ed. decision, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Loving Decision, The Griswold Decision, the Obergefell Decision and Roe v Wade.

You can couch it any way that you wish. You can make claim to being “reasonable” or calling for discussion. There is nothing to discuss. Fear is an emotion. The right is playing upon fear, period. I don’t really care about their fear. They will succumb to it eventually or they will move beyond it. That is their problem. My problem is that their fear and the politicians seeing power and votes in that fear must not pass laws based upon that fear.
gounion
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by gounion »

I guess Joe thought that a stork brought babies right up until his 18th birthday, and had no sexual feelings until then.

And if you take an 8-year-old to a gay wedding, they'll damage their psyche.

What bullshit.
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by gounion »

Y'know, before religious people start suing schools to keep teachers from saying the word "gay" - maybe they should stop their own clergy from molesting children.
The Southern Baptist Convention’s Executive Committee — and thousands of its rank-and-file members — now have opportunities to address a scathing investigative report that says top SBC leaders stonewalled and denigrated survivors of clergy sex abuse over two decades while seeking to protect their own reputations.

The report, issued Sunday, says these survivors, and other concerned Southern Baptists, repeatedly shared allegations with the Executive Committee, “only to be met, time and time again, with resistance, stonewalling, and even outright hostility from some within the EC.”

The seven-month investigation was conducted by Guidepost Solutions, an independent firm contracted by the Executive Committee after delegates to last year’s national meeting pressed for a probe by outsiders.

Since then, several top Executive Committee leaders have resigned, and the body — under interim leadership — will meet Tuesday to discuss the report. Three weeks later, the SBC will convene its 2022 national meeting in Anaheim, California, and the report will be discussed there as well.

*snip*

“Crisis is too small a word. It is an apocalypse,” Moore wrote for Christianity Today after reading the report. ”As dark a view as I had of the SBC Executive Committee, the investigation uncovers a reality far more evil and systemic than I imagined it could be.”

According to the report, Guidepost’s investigators, who spoke with survivors of varying ages including children, said the survivors were equally traumatized by the way in which churches responded to their reports of sexual abuse.

Survivors “spoke of trauma from the initial abuse, but also told us of the debilitating effects that come from the response of the churches and institutions like the SBC that did not believe them, ignored them, mistreated them, and failed to help them,” the report said.

It cited the case of Dave Pittman, who from 2006 to 2011 made phone calls and sent letters and emails to the SBC and Georgia Baptist Convention Board reporting that he had been abused by Frankie Wiley, a youth pastor at Rehoboth Baptist Church when he was 12 to 15 years old.

Pittman and several others have come forward publicly to report that Wiley molested and raped them and Wiley has admitted to abusing “numerous victims” at several Georgia Southern Baptist churches.
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ProfX
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

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So, if kids should be getting values from their parents, can somebody please notify Texas and other states to stop calling child protective services on the ones who have trans kids & who actually dare to talk to physicians about options before the kids turn 18? OKthxbye.

This always seems to be the big hole in the so-called "parental rights" discussion. Parents have supreme rights, unless they have a trans kid, and accept it as trans. Then all their "rights" to raise their kids as they see fit seem to go out the window.

Now the other thing that I really find so amusing about this is, gender and sexuality are very different things. The fact that people think you can't talk about gender without talking about sexuality/sexual orientation shows this exact confusion.
Last edited by ProfX on Mon May 23, 2022 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

Post by JoeMemphis »

bird wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:52 pm Welp, I think that I can explain it. There actually is no need for such laws. The driver is not so-called parental involvement/consent. The driver is fear, period. NO child is being indoctrinated, groomed or any other bullshit term/buzzword/dog whistle. That needs to be repeated: NO CHILD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED, GROOMED OR ANY OTHERR BULLSHIT TERM/BUZZWORD/DOG WHISTLE. Fear is a seller. It is a vote driver. Gin up fear over some imaginary issue and you get these results. ALL of this derives from multiple different historical sources that have been dredged up and repackaged: Leo Strauss, Russell Kirk, William F. Buckley, the John Birch Society, the Brown v Bd. of Ed. decision, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Loving Decision, The Griswold Decision, the Obergefell Decision and Roe v Wade.

You can couch it any way that you wish. You can make claim to being “reasonable” or calling for discussion. There is nothing to discuss. Fear is an emotion. The right is playing upon fear, period. I don’t really care about their fear. They will succumb to it eventually or they will move beyond it. That is their problem. My problem is that their fear and the politicians seeing power and votes in that fear must not pass laws based upon that fear.
I understand what you say but fact is that you aren’t in every classroom. Neither am I. So I can’t say that it isn’t occurring and neither can you. So just because you say it doesn’t happen doesn’t make it so. I think it’s understandable for parents to be concerned and interested in what is being taught in the classroom. I think it’s one of the few good things to come from the pandemic.

So call it what you want. I have regulations, legal and professional requirements that I have to follow to do my job. Many or us do. We can’t just tell our stakeholders that those are unnecessary and to simply trust us. It doesn’t work that way. Not in business and not in government. Education is no different. Teachers provide a service as professionals and have a fiduciary responsibility to parents, students and the public. That’s comes with boundaries.

As far as the politics of fear, well there’s a whole lot of that shit going around these days isn’t there. If you want to do away with it, you are going to have to muzzle just about every politician and political operative out there. Being positive gets you a primary opponent. Sucks but that the way it is these days.
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Re: Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

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JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:07 pm I understand what you say but fact is that you aren’t in every classroom. Neither am I. So I can’t say that it isn’t occurring and neither can you. So just because you say it doesn’t happen doesn’t make it so. I think it’s understandable for parents to be concerned and interested in what is being taught in the classroom. I think it’s one of the few good things to come from the pandemic.
Ah yes. We've got to come up with a law because it MIGHT happen!

Talk about the politics of fear. And when you elect nutjob right-wingers, they come up with all kinds of scary things to put fear into parent's minds. That way you don't pay attention to the preachers molesting their children!
So call it what you want. I have regulations, legal and professional requirements that I have to follow to do my job. Many or us do. We can’t just tell our stakeholders that those are unnecessary and to simply trust us. It doesn’t work that way. Not in business and not in government. Education is no different. Teachers provide a service as professionals and have a fiduciary responsibility to parents, students and the public. That’s comes with boundaries.
And that's the job of the school boards. Not fear-mongering politicians.
As far as the politics of fear, well there’s a whole lot of that shit going around these days isn’t there. If you want to do away with it, you are going to have to muzzle just about every politician and political operative out there. Being positive gets you a primary opponent. Sucks but that the way it is these days.
But then, the clergy IS molesting the kids, but we don't need to pay attention to THAT, do we Joe?
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Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:12 pm Ah yes. We've got to come up with a law because it MIGHT happen!

Talk about the politics of fear. And when you elect nutjob right-wingers, they come up with all kinds of scary things to put fear into parent's minds. That way you don't pay attention to the preachers molesting their children!

And that's the job of the school boards. Not fear-mongering politicians.

But then, the clergy IS molesting the kids, but we don't need to pay attention to THAT, do we Joe?
Yeah I’m not interested in a lecture on the politics of fear from someone who peddles that bullshit on a daily basis.

Did you happen to google child abuse cases in public schools?
gounion
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Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:28 pm Yeah I’m not interested in a lecture on the politics of fear from someone who peddles that bullshit on a daily basis.
I don't make up shit and say "we got to have a law because a teacher MAY say "gay" and damage an 8-year-old psyche!
Did you happen to google child abuse cases in public schools?
When it DOES happen, it's not covered up like it is in the Catholic and Southern Baptist church, now, is it?

I'd suggest, if you're REALLY concerned about what happens to kids, you clean that cesspool up FIRST!

Or you can just pretend there's nothing wrong, since it's not about liberals that you hate.
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gounion wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:35 pm I don't make up shit and say "we got to have a law because a teacher MAY say "gay" and damage an 8-year-old psyche!

When it DOES happen, it's not covered up like it is in the Catholic and Southern Baptist church, now, is it?

I'd suggest, if you're REALLY concerned about what happens to kids, you clean that cesspool up FIRST!

Or you can just pretend there's nothing wrong, since it's not about liberals that you hate.
I don’t think we should ignore child abuse by anyone. Investigate and prosecute them all. Are you suggesting that we ignore one over the other? I just figured since you were into a rant demonizing child abuse you wouldn’t want to leave any stone unturned. Maybe I gave you too much credit?

This isn’t about child abuse. It’s about parents being responsible for the education and welfare of their children. But since you brought up child abuse and I googled how often it happens in schools, I kinda understand the concern of parents about who as an adult is having such conversations with their minor children and what exactly they are being told. I hadn’t considered that possibility so thanks for bringing it up.
gounion
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Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:54 pm I don’t think we should ignore child abuse by anyone. Investigate and prosecute them all. Are you suggesting that we ignore one over the other? I just figured since you were into a rant demonizing child abuse you wouldn’t want to leave any stone unturned. Maybe I gave you too much credit?
It's you that's ignoring the REAL child abuse problem.

You know, this is how conservatives work. Do we have a huge problem with child molestation withing our largest churches, with decades-long coverups? Yes! So, what should we do about it?

Well, of course, let's make sure teachers don't say "gay" in classrooms!

That way you can ignore all the REAL problems in the world.
This isn’t about child abuse. It’s about parents being responsible for the education and welfare of their children. But since you brought up child abuse and I googled how often it happens in schools, I kinda understand the concern of parents about who as an adult is having such conversations with their minor children and what exactly they are being told. I hadn’t considered that possibility so thanks for bringing it up.
Yes, just dream up something else, so you don't have to deal in reality. After all, who cares how much the preachers are molesting children, right?
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Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:58 pm It's you that's ignoring the REAL child abuse problem.

You know, this is how conservatives work. Do we have a huge problem with child molestation withing our largest churches, with decades-long coverups? Yes! So, what should we do about it?

Well, of course, let's make sure teachers don't say "gay" in classrooms!

That way you can ignore all the REAL problems in the world.

Yes, just dream up something else, so you don't have to deal in reality. After all, who cares how much the preachers are molesting children, right?
I said investigate and prosecute all of it. In the public sector and the private sector. Ignore none of it. It’s you whose deflecting. Do you want to investigate and prosecute all child abused or not. Simple question. Or do you want to pick and choose based on your politics? I doubt you’ll answer.
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Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:28 pm Did you happen to google child abuse cases in public schools?
Whattabbouttery.

The Slavery Baptist Church is YOUR denomination. YOU vote for human trafficking conservative men and sex-abusing coaches.

So no wonder you'd rather change the subject when it comes to conservative sexual perversion.
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gounion
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Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 6:17 pm I said investigate and prosecute all of it. In the public sector and the private sector. Ignore none of it. It’s you whose deflecting. Do you want to investigate and prosecute all child abused or not. Simple question. Or do you want to pick and choose based on your politics? I doubt you’ll answer.
So why don’t we investigate all the GOP lawmakers that are doing cocaine and having orgies, like Madison Cawthorn said? Should we open an investigation on each and every one of them?

What’s funny is, with all the problems in our nation, you want to just dream up shit and investigate THAT, instead of REAL problems.

Because you have no solutions to the real problems facing our nation.
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Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 6:17 pm Simple question.
Simplest question of all: why haven't you watched the OP video, yet?
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carmenjonze
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Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:54 pm It’s about parents being responsible for the education and welfare of their children.
Pete Buttigieg is a parent.

He talks about his experiences as a parent in the OP video.

You haven't watched it, yet, because you do not support "parents." You only support the agenda of the Heritage Foundation and their astroturfed parents."
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gounion
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Post by gounion »

Of course, I’m quite sure that Joe will also defend Texas, which is having the state investigators investigate all the parents of all trans children, too, won’t he?

After all, he wants a police state where EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS INVESTIGATED.
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Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:07 pm I understand what you say but fact is that you aren’t in every classroom. Neither am I. So I can’t say that it isn’t occurring and neither can you. So just because you say it doesn’t happen doesn’t make it so. I think it’s understandable for parents to be concerned and interested in what is being taught in the classroom. I think it’s one of the few good things to come from the pandemic.
No, you don't, and neither does any white conservative in this country.

If you did, you clowns would be out at school board meetings yelling and screaming at school board members about teaching great replacement theory in public schools.

These white conservative males mass-murdering people in synagogues and churches do not believe in critical race theory.

They believe in white genocide/great replacement theory.
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